Collecting statistical data on GBB life
 

I regularly get questions on how long a particular GBB slide will last shooting propane. I also get a lot of requests to lifecycle test a GBB on the lifecycle tester I built to prove my flow restrictor:

http://www.airsoft-innovations.com/i...wrestrictorfaq

While this is probably the most sure way to monitor lifecycle related failures in a GBB, it's very expensive and the results are unfortunately only anecdotal. A lifecycle test means I have to pretty much sacrifice a GBB (not many ppl want to buy a GBB with 15k shots on it) and I have to maintain the test for 2-3 days (which actually costs more than the GBB itself).

Failing that, I would still like to give a useful answer to GBB lifecycle questions.

If you use a GBB that you know the history of (i.e. first owner) please respond in the following format:

GBB model: please be specific e.g. KSCG17 or KWAG17

Quantity and type of propellent used to date: 8x 465g cans propane, + 3 containers of HFC134a

Failures to date: broken slide @ apprx 3x cans of propane, replaced nozzle @ 5x cans

Interesting history: dropped down a concrete stairwell during indoor CQB game @ 2 cans. Pistolwhipped/mercydeathkilled someone wearing a helmet @ 2.5 cans


If you have used your GBB and still have experienced no failures for more than 3 cans of propellant, I'm still interested in your GBB history. Just post the GBB model, Qty and type of propellant used to date, and I'll assume no failures to date (if none are stated).


Thanks for your help in this matter. It would be nice to finally be able to say something more useful than: "I'm sorry, I have no non anecdotal usage data on your particular GBB. If your comfortable with green gas, than you've already accepted propane."

I suspect that nearly everyone uses propane/GG especially in the US anyways. It would still be good to categorize GBB failures with respect to shots (I can calculate with propellant usage) as it would indicate what GBBs are actually reliable.

KJW M9 (Metal):
One bottle of propane:
Slide cracked at the back:
Unknown Damage during shipping.

KJW M9
~1 465g's of propane
Outer barrel broke during firing
Damaged on arrival however
Dropped on its side from ~1 metre at least once

KSC M11 upgraded with metal upper reciever and bolt
~3 cans of propane
Thing loves the '22
No problems while it was in my posession

GBB model: Tm Desert Eagle Hardkick

Quantity and type of propellent used to date: 1x 465g can of Ozark Trail propane and 1x 1000ml can of Toy Jack, TOP green gas

Failures to date: Metal part inside the back of the slide cracked, lucky my dealer had an extra around.

Interesting history: While crawling down a metal tube felling out of my pants like 15 times (didn't have a holster), fell like 5 feet off a hill (might have hit some branches), slide out of my holster (wasn't buckled) and fell 1 foot onto the carpet.

GBB model: TM hicap about 1 year old now...
Propellent : about 6 bottle of coleman propane, 2 of AMO green gas and 2 of duster.. probably more
Damage: wear on the slide lock is starting to show but still does the job without any problem
Upgrades: Airsoft Innovation prototype piston cup... Works like a charm. The rest is bone stock.

KSC Glock 23f - Metal Slide + Inner barrel - Upgraded rod+spring.

2 full Coleman propane cylinders ~ 3,000 BBs total

No failures, no issues of any kind.

GBB model: TM desert eagle hardkick
quantity of propelent: at least 4 or 5 bottles of various brands of propane. (burnzomatic, siara trail, colman, and another)
failures to date: same thing as Egria experianced. a pice inside the slide broke, except mine broke right off and was floting around causing jams. took me a wile to figure it out, but i took it apart, removed the pice and it works again, except for the safty. (it might still be able to work, i have tried puting the pices back in) this was at a bottle of propane ago.
Note: this happend when i loaned the gun out a couple times, so i cant be sure that the cause was propane.

Ya same thing. I only found out when my gun started jaming up and the slide wouldn't slide all the way foward.

KSC G23F FMU
- upgraded recoil and hammer springs @ ZERO mags
- Firefly rocket valve @ 39 mags
- upgraded valve plug spring @ 39 mags

Propellant: approximately 45x mags-worth (mix of G19/G17) using only Coleman (blue bottle) and Taiwanese green gas. Mix of full auto and semi doubletaps.

Failures to date:
- stock floating valve combusted @37/39 mags using green gas on warm summer day.
- loading nozzle damaged due to gross negligence during floating valve installation (not gas related)
- no problems previous to floating valve failure.

New loading nozzle, firefly rocket valve, and upgraded plug spring @ 1.5 mags and going strong.



WA Beretta 92FS Centurion
- upgraded PGC loading nozzle @ 50 mags

Propellant: Upwards of 60 mags-worth using ONLY green gas. No duster, ever.

Failures:
- loading nozzle lip and BB-push nub thoroughly fuxxored @ 40 mags.

Loading nozzle damage caused extreme gas consumption. Replaced with PGC nozzle @50 mags.

Pistol subsequently sold. Slide was intact and going strong.

WA 1911 Wilson Combat CQB (1995 Model)
HFC134
No Issues... ever.

WA 1911 STI Limited Master (1997)
HFC134
No Issues... ever.

Tanaka Glock 17 Rail.
HFC134
Leaky Mag in a few days. Broken mag parts in a month.

WE HiCapa
Propane
No Issues.

GBB model: KJW M9

Propellent: 3x 465g cans propane (Coleman, green cans), 2x cans of green gas

Failures to date: None, expect for leaking mags once in a while.

GBB model: KSC G23F FMU

Propellent: 2x 465g cans propane (Coleman, green cans). Used extended 49rd mag and G19 mag, both have stock valves.

Failures to date: Broken loading ramp after around 30 mags. Hopup rubber slightly increased in size and eventually started to fall apart close to the end of second can, not sure about the cause, I suspect propaine or silicon oil.

KJ P14.45 (stock)
-Been through 2 cans of Coleman Propane, 2.5 cans of Ozark trail
Problems:
-Two mags have blown all seals. (at about 4.5 cans)
-Spring holding the blowback-valve back snapped (At about 2 cans)
-Hammer snapped in two (At 3 cans)
-WA Part 25's upper pin sheared off (at 3 cans)
-Numerous mag leaks (throughout)
-Mag valves opened up all the way when cold and fired.. (At 1 can)

WA Para HRT SCW (PGC metal slide, guarder recoil spring, hogue grips)
Been through 5 cans of Coleman propane, 1 Ozark
-Nozzle loading nozzle broken midway through 6th tank. (suspecting poor BB misfeed where a second bb came out and broke the nozzle when it came forward) replaced with shooters design part
-broke a bb follower due to negligence, replaced with OEM part
-mag rubbers changed recently because I felt like it
History: fell off my desk a couple times. still goin and kicking ass for over 1.5 years!

GBB model: KWA CZ 75

Quantity and type of propellent used: About one bottle of propane. Some HFC 134

Failures to date: none works like a charm, HFC 134 doesn't cycle the slide properly.

Interesting history: A small metal plate inside the magwell came loose and fell out (repaired). Other then that nothing.

GBB TM Glock 26 Advance
4 cans Coleman Propane
Failures to date: None, functions flawlessly

GBB KSC USP Compact
About 1 can Coleman Propane
Failures to date: Safety deactivates when trigger is pulled, but otherwise functions flawlessly

tm m92fs biohazard.
10+ cans of green gas with no problems
less than 1 can on propain and the rear sight broke off including the rear top of the slide

ksc usp compact
1 can coleman propane
as well as darklen the safety dose not work still decocks but no safety.

KSC G23F

3 cans of green gas so far.

Small tearing away of slide catch, but functions perfectly.

Nothing too interesting in the history, I take good care of it.

I'll keep running it on propane until it breaks, and then buy all the upgrades my little heart desires...

Tom

ksc glock 23f. on the second mag through this brand new gun, blew the slide clean off. (propane). selector switch is loose after that also.

Yes, my friend has the same problem. It seems to only happen for him when the mag is emptied, leading me to believe it has something to do with the chipped away slide catch.

looking good! thanks for the input. I'm hoping to get perhaps over 15 reports on each of the common models to get a good statistical representation of typical useage. I may have to group common models (e.g. WA 0.45 series GBBs) to get a useful number of occurances to draw conclusions.

Gun: WA SVI 5" Limited
PRIME metal slide
Guarder springs, hammer and nozzle

History and failures:
Came to me extremely well used, I believe with 134a. The only problem was a worn feed ramp on the loading nozzle, and I replaced the nozzle, as well as the slide and springs.
After approximately one to two cans of propane, the hammer started to develop cracks. It was disintegrated after another can of propane, and was replaced with Guarder's steel hammer. It's probably into it's fifth or sixth can of propane by now, still with no serious problems that weren't caused by me. The blowback chamber is usually loose after a game, even if I loctite the screws, which is a little odd.

GBB model: KSC Glock 19 w/ Metal Slide and outer barrel. Highflow valves on mags. Upgraded recoil rod and spring.

Quantity and type of propellent used to date: 20+ cans green gas

Failures to date: none

Interesting history: Dropped once or twice during cqb. No longer own this GBB, but it was a workhorse.

GBB model: TM mk23 nbb (I'm the second owner)

propellent: I've put through at least 2 cans of propane, got the gun used and it was always on propane. probalby another couple cans there.

Failures to date: none at all (gun wise). no signs of wear or problems other then the common mk23 mag presure valve went after the 2nd can of gas (by me). used 5 minute epoxy on and around the main seals and valve. gun is still working 100%

Generally for CQB i've been useing this gun as my main gun. I go through a good 5 - 10 mags of ammo in a game night. good point about propane is because the gun is so efficient with it's gas I can use 3 mags of of ammo with one fill up with propane.

GBB: KSC Glock 19 with metal slide
Propellent: at least 6 bottles of Propane
Use: For over a year, thousands and thousands of rounds fired.
Mods: Upgraded spring.

Notes: Pretty hard on my guns, been bumped, dropped, and cleaned infrequently. The only thing I do religiously is put a lot of oil in the top of the propane bottle when I am filling my mags. Have 5 mags that don't leak at all.

IMO: If you are looking for a reliable gun, I don't know of a better one.

GBB model:WE-TECH hicapa(second owner)

Propellent:1 bottle of coleman propane

Failure:Twisted loading nozzle, probably happens when using Tm mags doesn't cycle with TM mags anymore but works flawlesly with original mag.

model - TM 5.1" hicapa
propellent - ~2 CT propane bottles
use - ~3-4 months
mods - halfway through its life, upgraded return spring, shooters design slide, barrel, chamber cover, pdi piston head, freedom art railed frame/steel hammer pin (5.1"), wider valve in the breech machined by a friend
stock slide seemed to have minimal wear and tear at time of replacement
issues - the thumb safety acts a little funky, the right thumb saftety becomes slightly detatched after shooting ~4 mags or when left by itself for a few days; probably because i didnt put it back together properly; fixed by just pushing it back in

WA 1934 Beretta
HFC134
Been droped a few times
No issues what so ever

Marushin Browning 1910 (NBB)
Greengas, propaine, HFC134
No issues what so ever

KJW M9 Beretta
Green gas only
No issues What so Ever

WA 1911A1
HFC134
Cracked slide, needs new recoil spring, new hammer

Marushin Derringer
HFC134
Leaks of and on but I have never had any big issues.

Is it the one I bought? I was going to post it hehe.

KWA Glock 19 FMU w/ upgraded recoil spring.
7x bottles of coleman propane
1xGreen gas (1000ml)

Out of 6 mags, only one leaked.

Gun is still in great shape, No problems.

KSC USP Compact with upgraded recoil spring, hammer spring, metal outer barrel, metal slide.

3x bottles of propane have been used (fired about 5000 shots)

Problem #1: Hopup rubber broke in its first few weeks after its purchase.

Problem #2: Three days ago, a week after installing the hammer spring, the trigger snapped.

Problem #3: When firing the slide sometimes gets stuck on the hopup rubber, causing it to embed itself into it. Which means during some games the slide has to be moved into the proper position after every shot.

Problem #4: The safety switch no longer functions. Noticed this after a month of use.

In my opinion, installing a hammer spring was a very bad idea. It puts way too much stress on the trigger which is made of very poor metal.

I take good care of my pistol, i clean it and lube it after every use. has been dropped a few times and left in the dirt. But I don't scratch my guns i love them too much.

All of my magazines work flawlessly but a broken trigger means a useless pistol now untill a replacement trigger can be found :(

Gun: MK23 NBB
Propelent: 1 can of Butane Lighter Fluid
Use/Damage: Shows little sign of use after me cocking it back consistantly (the slide) and I have put like 200+ shots on it, stilll fires great and no sign of wear or stress on the gun.

You've been firing lighter fluid? Geeze, what happened to duster and propane? Is lighter fluid safe to shoot? MadMax?

Gun: marushin derringer 8mm
Propelent: i assume propane at one time and now duster (atleast a bottle through it)
Use/Damage: The gun leaked on delivery as i was informed. I assume it was ran on propane causing the gas resevoir in the pistol grip to cause the screws holding it to loosen. Loctite teflon tape and putting the screw back in now holds it in tight and works flawlessly.

Gun: KJW mk1 carbine
Propelent:propane before i owned it, now runs on duster (3 or 4 cans now)
Use/Damage: plastic hopup unit in it sucks and cracks easily. Fixed with a very hard to find metal hopup. Gun works flawlessly now.

I don't think he means lighter fluid as in the ronson stuff for Zippo's. I think he means the slim butane cans with a tip that seems just right for airsoft.

It's not particularly dangerous as butane is as flammable as propane, but butane only exerts 40ish psi whereas propane pushes 115psi at room temp. 40psi is too low to cycle most gbb slides. You'd get a slide lockup and the gun would poof all of it's gass on the 2nd or 3rd shot.

Gun: G26 #1
Propellant: Duster (Tetra)
Use/Problems: No problems after 10,000 rounds (yep!)

Gun: G26 # 2
Propellant: Propane for 300 rounds, then duster
Use/Problems: Slide cracked at the front at three hundred rounds, switched to duster after that (and a new plastic slide from a KJWG27) and no problems whatsoever at around 4000 rounds

Yes, I use airisol butane lighter fluid. It could not work better. Try it out some time

Yeah, it seems to have the same output power. I could be wrong tho...

Its cured....i remplaced the original loading nozzle by a garder enhanced loading nozzle for marui hicapa 5.1.Both mags works fine now

KSC USP Compact
Bought new from Specarms
Propellant: around 3 to 4 bottles Ozark Trail Propane
BBs: Airsoft Elite 0.25g and 0.20g

Problems: Damn, where do I start?

Safety wore down and became useless after less than a month. Decocker works but placing the catch on safe and squeezing the trigger will disengage it.

Original plastic slide destroyed after a thousand or so rounds. Slide catch broke and effectively doubled in length, rear of slide cracked and broke lengthwise in two places on left side and popped off the frame when fired. Replaced with a slightly used plastic slide.

Entire rear of the frame - underneath the hammer, above the backstrap - cracked and broke off exposing the metal hammer assembly. Doesn't affect function.

Second plastic slide showing signs of destruction; slide catch notch peening, cracks developing around rear sight.

Jams occasionally upon firing, not coming fully into battery requiring a push on the slide to lock it up.

Overall I'm extremely disappointed with this pistol and KSC in general. I will not be buying another KSC product.

Wow, it's not the first bad USP by KSC I've heard about. Anyone with USPs in good condition?

#1 TM M92F TACTICAL MASTER

UPGRADES : Firefly valve, Metal slide, Recoil spring, Metal hammer and Hogue grip

PROPELLANT : Propane ( Canadian tire or wallmart ) 1000 bb's

PROBLEMS : Nozzle spring was jammed, botom seal leaking.

COMMENTS : Everything else is working fine, realy strong GBB and very solid, work flawlessly.

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#2 : KWA G23F

UPGRADES : Tightbore barrel.

PROPELLANT : Propane ( Canadian tire or wallmart ) 500 bb's

PROBLEMS : The Hop up sleeve was craked.

COMMENTS : Everything else is working fine. Amazing GBB, to work with, metal slide.

JF

It's not KSC's fault you used propane in a gun designed for duster. That's like blaming TM for a bad design after you stripped your AEG's gears by using a 12V 6000 mAh battery.

Try reading this thread more closely and do a little research on the USP Compact. It's a problem gun for almost everyone who owns one. There are dozens of guns that are designed to run on duster but take propane without issue. I have had three KSC guns and all have either broken or had major problems even with regular maintenance and care. I don't know if I just attract lemons but the fact of the matter is, I am unimpressed.

If your 3 bad experiences with KSC guns had all used duster gas, then I can see why you would not like KSC guns. But if you used a higher gas than was intended for the USP, how can it be KSC's fault that you misused it? If one of your other two KSC guns broke under duster gas, then it would be KSC's fault, but not for this particular instance with the USP.

Anyways,

I've used 2 KWA G19's, 1 KSC G19, and 1 KWA M11 for 2 years, all with propane and have had zero problems so far.

You just don't seem to get it.

The issue with the frame cracking is because it apparently overlaps the frame rails at the rear, which causes slide strikes on the frame and eventually breaks pieces off.

That a good enough non-gas related reason to be unimpressed?

First of all, something on the frame has to stop the slide from moving back at the end of its motion, or the slide will fly off and hit the user in the face.

Secondly, if you used duster, the slide might not have had enough kinetic energy to damage the frame.

Well, wearing out the slide catch isn't really a propane related issue as it's only loaded by the recoil spring instead of the propane blowback.

The safety wearing is also pretty lame. The slide-frame shouldn't have interferences either with duster or propane. Is it possible you got a bad GBB?

Most KSC GBBs seem pretty good. The USP sounds like the first one with chronic issues and actual design flaws. It might actually be a bad build. Their Glocks certainly do better even with propane.

Yeah, and the 1mm thick plastic frame at the back ISN'T IT.

If, if, if. You don't own one, do you? Didn't think so. Stop hijacking this thread with your unsolicited, uninformed opinion.

I doubt I got the odd lemon. The safety wearing out is common on all USP Compacts. The problem is legion on Arnie's. I've also seen several broken rear frames here on ASC and locally, because as Myoga fails to realize the rear plastic part that butts up against the hammer mechanism apparently isn't flush with it with respect to the slide rails. As the slide recoils, it catches and rubs on the thin plastic part and stresses it, eventually cracking and breaking it off. Doesn't matter what gas you're using, if it's rubbing and catching it will eventually break.

It seems this gun was built as more of a showpiece than an actual skirmishing weapon, which is too bad because I REALLY liked it. Felt good in the hand, snappy recoil, and relatively reliable. It's too bad they're so plagued with breakage.

-KJW Glock 23(Metal slide version)

-Propellant
One coleman propane bottle
-Round gone through it
Hundreds of BB's I haven't kept track
-Problems
None, nil, zilch, this is by far the best GBB for gaming i've handled yet
-Comments
I am extremely impressed with this gun, I bought it new from spec arms for like $230, at first it wasn't the exact gun I was looking for. But at his new years sale the one I wanted was gone, well good thing for me I got something better. I ordered a propane adaptor, 3 spare mags, and some silicon oil. All I do is clean it once and a while, relubricate the slide, springs, etc. and it runs amazingly. I haven't even scratched it at all on the gun itself even though I use it quite a bit. My recommendations go towards this gun for anyone looking to purchase a solid backup weapon.

i've had my Ksc usp compact for about a year... 5 maybe 6 bottles of duster throu it. NOT A SINGLE PROBLEM... I take care of it, but it's been drop in sand and was in my holster when proned in winter games. it's been trough a lot and still very trustworthy. why take the chance and use a stock ksc usp on propane when it's not recommended, that sounds like a waist of money...

Where did you purchase yours from?

TM Desert Eagle Black (2nd owner)

At least 5 bottle of propane

As many rounds as 5 bottles of popane will allow

Issues:
Slide lock (valley on the slide) worn from normal use. Not propane related.

Some of you may have read the full auto mod floating around unconventionalairsoft.com - I wrote that article a few years ago for the KWC DE. I decided to do it again for the TM DE. Worked beautifully on full auto. No problems after that either.





Glock 26c KSC (full auto)

6 cans of propane.

many many many thousands of rounds

It'll only fire on propane now... Upgraded mag catch, but the mag is still not tight on the blowback internals in the slide.

Thanks Kane.

I suspect that there are a lot of GBBs that are working fine that I'm not hearing about. I can't put together useful statistics without also including GBBs that are working too.

our team has collectively something like 60 gbb's. every major manufacturer (tm,ksc,w.a.,w.e. kjw) and not 1 failure in over 2 years with only green gas use. no duster, no propane and many thousands of rounds. i have a ksc usp compact that's seen 1 river and more sand than i can count. only runs on green and never gave me any grief. soem guys in my area have bought ksc g23f and 18c and rocket valves have broken in full-auto use with green, probably 6 or so that i can recall. i did see 1 w.a. with a broken slide from green use last year. i think it was an infinity 4.3 of some sort.