Needed: Guinea Pigs

[Kokanee]

And in Canada where we don't have UKARA??....

[CJay]

Kokanee. I've already sorted out the Llp statement in regards to the legal requirements of such in its country of origin so no worries there.

I'm actually glad to have someone like you grabbing at this as it's making me think more about the system. Perhaps we do need a type of age verification system in place however I have been advised by our lawyers that with respect to the clause that states all reasonable steps must be taken. In this case due to the website being a foreign entity it falls within the legal requirements of the host location. Don't blow up yet lol. I'm not denying you have a point however and have forwarded your concerns to the appropriate person in charge. Perhaps for the Canadian system we may need stricter gate keeping systems and that's something I'll be happy to incorporate. We spent a long time going over liability issues in various situations and primarily it's not an issue but I can see where your concern lies. I'll throw the site into maintenance till it's sorted out. I'm honestly not in te habit of ignoring good advice and you are making a fair bit of sense albeit only within Canadian law but still. Let's see if we can get a solution that works for everyone!

That work for ya?

[Kokanee]

That sounds like an excellent approach. There has to be a simple way to ensure guns stay out of the hands of minors, and still make it work for you.

[Ricochet]

I have a question. Are there free trade on items internationally that can be used as sporting goods, firearm related, military related, can be used to create guns or explosives, pornographic material, sexual acts or shows, etc, and do these international trade systems have comprehensive age verification?

You couldn't do it the same as ASC, not internationally. What exactly constitutes as "all reasonable precautions"? Are you aware of the laws in all counties involved? Perhaps a compressive list of import/ownership laws of each involved country may be in order. So people can check before makeing a trade/sale.

That Carl situation Kokanee mentioned, has happened. 13/14 year old boy in California a few months back. I don't know if the shooting officers have killed themselves, but they could be going through therapy. Honestly, if you want our support, having the whole "it's technically from somewhere else, so at least my ass is covered" attitude won't fly here. Think about what ASC is built upon, and all the knife's edge crap airsoft went through to get here, as it is in Canada now.

This is not an attack, I think this sort of thing is inevitable, but we have things good simply because of the way we have done things. Doing less, may hurt in the end.

[CJay]

Like I said (or didn't I guess)

I can on ocasion be a complete dick if I think the situation calls for it but u have raised a decent point. Just for terms of reference. The website has been approved by enom USA as a legitimate and completely legal entity and they accept wholeheartedly the terms of liability. My colleague in the us is responsible for legal matters pertaining to the terms of use and we have that covered. What I'll do in te meantime is get my lawyer here in Calgary to look into getting a separate version and if it's required for Canadian use being that the website is based in the Southern USA.

Again we are not strictly dealing with Canadian law with the liability clause but if it will appease worry here then I will have it sorted out.

Just out of interest. What are you using as your reference terms for liability in your case study as the lawyer we consulted here (McCarthy Tetraut Firm) advised us that the terms of use is more than enough to remove responsibility for an action as you described. I appreciate tht it doesn't negate peoples worry however and would love to know what you personally or anyone else for that matter would require?

[CJay]

I'm aware that simply complying with regs is not in of itself adequate to assure most people that there is safety in the system which is why I'm taking this action. So with that in mind honestly. Any suggestions you may have I'll be happy to entertain. My lawyer just suggested the porn website model. Charge a nominal membership fee or ad fee say 1$ and make it only payable by credit card. It's a form of remote age verification.

I'll also add that I'm not using the it's in another geographical location as a get out card. I'm simply stating that that's the way it was designed for use in the other test regions and as such that's how it stands. Now further to that your telling me that some people have reservations about the reasonable action taken to ensure safety. I'm hearing ya so let's sort it in a way that works for everyone but maintains te spirit of the system.

[Kokanee]

I love lawyers who tell people "just say you're not responsible if anything goes wrong, that will remove you from any liability".

I recently stumbled across a product (cleaning soap) that had a giant "THIS PRODUCT IS WHMIS EXEMPT" label slapped across it where a WHMIS label should have been.

Turns out the product contains a suspected carcinogen and a skin irritant, and employees using this product were developing reactions to it.

When questioned, the response from the company rep was "oh well our lawyer told us that because our products are not harmful to the environment we don't have to comply with WHMIS legislation".....

I'm not going to argue law with someone who does it for a living full time, but it's not so easy to waive liability responsibility as just displaying a notice on your website. Disclaimers can't save you from screaming parents on the news at the end of the day....

At the end of the day, putting all the legal aspects aside, there is a moral and ethical responsibility at play here as well. One has to be able to sleep at night.

I think the credit card "membership" idea is a great way to go about it.

[Ricochet]

Yes, there you go, an a age gate. Let's be serious for moment, there's no way you can protect yourself from stupid parents or super intelligent kids on an international scale, but you're trying to stop innocents from getting hurt. From a Canadian standpoint, obviously this community will likely wish to protect their interests, which at present, is an improving airsoft scene.

Obviously things like FPS/Joule restriction, fraud/smuggling, ITAR, etc, will all show their face at some point. So, like ebay then?

[CJay]

Ok so looking at the site I'm gonna split te membership criteria. Standrd members can post and view all sections not related to guns thensekves but we're going to work on securing out the guns section in the Canadian version. We figure 5 bucks for the year is a fair enough price. Until we can hammer out anything more secure that's free that will have to do.

As for the registration glitch mentioned earlier it's been found and fixed bud.seems to be a bit hard to track down so please try again and let me know. Site will be back by early tomorrow by the looks of things.

[graff]

Which retailers that have ads on here actually verify age before sending out online orders for guns? You can google and find the main sellers websites without ever coming to ASC.

[CJay]

That's true although I would suspect they rely on a similar system to what I'll be implementing. Payment requires some sort credit card typically.

Anyone have any info on that one?

[Corinth]

Originally Posted by Kokanee

Case study time;

In two weeks time a 14yo boy (Carl) uses your site to purchase an ICS M4 from another user. Even though they've both signed off on the TOS, promising to "abide by all local laws" etc, the gun is sold as the other fellow wants the money more than he cares about if a teenager has a plastic toy gun.

Carl takes the gun home and starts "playing airsoft" in his neighbourhood. Neighbour calls 911 to report someone brandishing a firearm, cops show up and a young constable (Bob) on his first assignment unfortunately put two rounds in young Carl's chest because Carl points the rifle at him as he turns when confronted with "police!".

The news vans are there before the paramedics arrive and pictures of Carl's bloodied body are soon circulating attached to headlines that read "DEATH BY COP" and "BOY SHOT BY ACCIDENT".

Carl is dead, a family has lost a son, the sport gets a SHITLOAD of bad publicity, and six months later Bob puts on his police dress uniform and shoots himself in the head at home, killing himself because he can't get over the guilt of having shot Carl over a toy gun. Petitioning from Carl and Bob's families pressures the local prosecutor to open and investigation into how young Carl was able to get a product which is supposed to be restricted to those over the age of 18, and on a sunny September morning two RCMP constables are knocking on your door with a warrant to seizes your computer and take you in for questioning.

You're arrested and charged with one count of criminal negligence causing death in contravention of section 219(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada in that you displayed "a wanton and callous disregard" for the safety of others. As well you're charged with facilitating weapons trafficking under section 99 of the criminal code, and unauthorized transfer under section 101.

A good lawyer might be able to plead down the criminal negligence charge to simple negligence causing death, but still you're staring at a long prison term in federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison.

</scene>

I smell a script for an episode of Law & Order, you just need this: Law & Order Sound: The Doink Doink (AKA the "Chung Chung") - YouTube... heh...

[graff]

Majority of sites accept EMT. All you need is a bank account. My point is as much as ASC likes to think it polices and maintains 18+ gun purchases it really doesn't. Except for the buy/sell on here of course.

[Kos-Mos]

I don't know if you are aware, but you can setup a credit card verification system without having to charge people.

Some websites do it already. I don't know how, but I suspect that you would have to contact some credit card providers.

Maybe PayPal offers the option, it's been a long time since I played in their business tools.

[coach]

credit card verification still does not prevent little bobby from taking mommy or daddy's credit card and entering all the pertinent information.