WIP: Upgrading Your Tokyo Marui Glock

[turok_t]

Michael,

I can answer some of your questions:

1) are you able to VISIBLY IDENTIFY the difference between a stock and (let's just say) a GUARDER recoil or hammer spring? i ask because i have about 6 or so springs that i am unsure of the manufacturer of. some examples are below.

perhaps there is a test to see the tension? perhaps color or length (although almost all identical, i can see some SLIGHT variation, it could also be my aging eyes...)


From my experience, Guarder has two kinds of hammer springs: One which is sold by itself, the other which is sold with the recoil rod/spring as shown here:



and here:



Based on your pictures, this is my guess:



I can tell you that they are not Shooter's Design hammer springs though.

I had the best results with Shooter's Design hammer springs, since the tension on the springs don't weaken over time. Guarder also has really strong hammer springs given by the angle of the two prongs, but whether the tension will be maintained in the future is uncertain.

2) have you ever found doubling up a recoil spring to be beneficial? this is simply out of curiosity.

Yes, you can do this to increase the ROF by using a second stage spring in series with your primary recoil spring. Or you can use a full length recoil spring with a 1/2 to 1/3 of another spring. However, you will need the plastic "C" clip to fit between the springs. The more springs you put, the more you short stroke the gun will be. However, if you put too much, your slide will not lock when the magazine is empty, and you may have issues chamber the next round. You can use one of the aftermarket upgrade guide rods (Shooters Design, Guarder) and use two springs fitted between the "C" clip. You can also add buffers, or if you really want to go extreme, a lot of japanese racegun users insert a tube over a portion of the recoil spring to increase cycling speed. Here is a picture of the two stage recoil system for glocks. As you can see in the picture below, the spring is short, but very stiff which helps to recoil the slide back to battery. You can put your stock spring inside the rod to go along with this second stage spring.

[Jagd]

Just ordered this for my Tm G18C: http://tokyomodelcompany.kancart.com.../10061#!detail

It is the new model, the valve is not metal made anymore... wonder if it has to do with the high cycling of the full auto and the metal valve that could damage the nozzle. Anyway the older full Metal version is sold out everywhere.

Question for you guys. I heavily modified my G18C recently (went for PGC slide, guns modify aluminum bbu, zero hammer and AIP hammer set... I went for Ipsc shooting, the other day (the first time after assembling everything) and everything was working fine. Now last weekend all of a sudden even with the selector on semi it was shooting on full auto sometimes. I was pissed. Now I came back home and tried in putting back some of the original hammer assembly parts combined with the AIP ones (the reason I upgraded originally was because of a worn full auto sear) So I finally found that with all the AIP parts save for the guns modify zero hammer (I put back the original hammer instead) , the gun was shooting perfectly fine again and only in semi while on semi. That being said can someone explains me why the zero hammer is causing that?

[e-luder]

It's probably not interfacing with the BBU properly.
My guess is that the BBU is pushed a little to high and considering the zero hammer has MINIMAL contact with the BBU, it won't to lock the semi-sear...

I dunno. I have to see.

Originally Posted by Jagdalex

Just ordered this for my Tm G18C: http://tokyomodelcompany.kancart.com.../10061#!detail

It is the new model, the valve is not metal made anymore... wonder if it has to do with the high cycling of the full auto and the metal valve that could damage the nozzle. Anyway the older full Metal version is sold out everywhere.

Question for you guys. I heavily modified my G18C recently (went for PGC slide, guns modify aluminum bbu, zero hammer and AIP hammer set... I went for Ipsc shooting, the other day (the first time after assembling everything) and everything was working fine. Now last weekend all of a sudden even with the selector on semi it was shooting on full auto sometimes. I was pissed. Now I came back home and tried in putting back some of the original hammer assembly parts combined with the AIP ones (the reason I upgraded originally was because of a worn full auto sear) So I finally found that with all the AIP parts save for the guns modify zero hammer (I put back the original hammer instead) , the gun was shooting perfectly fine again and only in semi while on semi. That being said can someone explains me why the zero hammer is causing that?

[e-luder]

Originally Posted by e-luder View Post
Just to be clear...
"polishing" and "filing/sanding" have different conotations.

Although they undergo the same process essentially, they effects that you are trying to achieve is different.

Polishing simply means (to me) smoothening out parts.
Sanding/filing means REMOVING material to fit things into place.

I only want to polish mirror like, all metal parts to reduce friction, not removing material

I was confused by what you were trying to achieve based on your wordings on the previous post but now I know.

You don't really need to polish the inner side of the barrel. Mainly because you have an inner barrel for the barrel to ride along.

I misinterpreted the MikeMcnair post

I don't even think there are many people (if any at all) would polish their real steel barrel anyways. It will screw up the rifling inside.

To me you shouldn't be using a dremmel at all.
Other than using it for how MikeNair said to use it, it will not do you any favors.

Dremel used with soft wheel and "red Compund" only for polishing

Good Old needle files and your own sweat and arthritis provoking hard work will get you a more precise result.

A dremmel is ruthless on pot-metal. Plus it's very hard to control...

...

[e-luder]

Originally Posted by kar120c

MikeMcNair,

may you suggest a solution for other issues I have with my KJW G27?

I have 2 Kjw mags and 1 Marui mag.
With KJW the pistol works well but the first shots cause gas vent from the back of the pistol. I tried to upgrade the rubber nozzles of the mag with the "purple" ones (I don't remember the brand) but is the first times all worked well but after a while the issue come back.

Using the Marui mag I have striking failure if I insert the mag with the slide closed, but if I insert it with the slide opened all works perfeclty, no vent and mopre power than with kjw mags.

I think something prevents the magazine to fit higher

My set up is this

KJW G27 OD green
Guarder recoil and hammer springs
Guarder steel recoil rod
Guarder steel magazine catch
Guarder front and rear sights
Safety trigger (Kjw dosn't have it due to copyright issues)
Guarder and Shooter design Valve knockers, but I can't get work none of them

Here's what you do...

1). Take out ALL of these upgrades you've installed
2). Re-install your stock components
3). Re-install your upgrade components 1 at a time.


Do this until you find the incompatible part. Then modify said part accordingly.

You Marui magazine is acting wonky because the system you're trying to use it on is not its primary/intended use.

Using the Marui mag I have striking failure if I insert the mag with the slide closed, but if I insert it with the slide opened all works perfeclty, no vent and mopre power than with kjw mags.

I think something prevents the magazine to fit higher

Yea. Your magazine. lol.

My Guess is that the notch on the magazine that the mag catch "catches" sits higher than your KJW mags.

...and again, i think I've also stated this before, you have to allow clearance for the firing pin relative to the magazine blowoff valve. That's why you're getting a "strike failure". THe firing pin MUST have some room to gain velocity for the strike.

Apilar already provided the solution. You must shave a few millimeters off of the firing pin to allow for the clearance.

[e-luder]

Originally Posted by MikeMcNair

Apilar,

excellent point indeed! i must admit though, i have not run into a single issue with a single valve knocker one of these yet. i am in no way discounting the idea, simply sharing my experience.

E-Luder & everyone:

i posted this above, but fear it was missed, so i'm posting lower, down here lol...


E-Luder:

thank you! i was clearly over-thinking the innerbarrel/outerbarrel rattle. leave it to me....

now that i am thinking of questions you may be able to help with, i have a few more for you if you don't mind.

1) are you able to VISIBLY IDENTIFY the difference between a stock and (let's just say) a GUARDER recoil or hammer spring? i ask because i have about 6 or so springs that i am unsure of the manufacturer of. some examples are below.

perhaps there is a test to see the tension? perhaps color or length (although almost all identical, i can see some SLIGHT variation, it could also be my aging eyes...)

2) have you ever found doubling up a recoil spring to be beneficial? this is simply out of curiosity.

3) have you ever fitted an aluminum BBH and consequent Piston Head from a G17 into the smaller G26 counterpart? this is something i have always pondered.

i appreciate this thread, and your efforts tremendously!

-Michael

2 photos with slightly different lighting to see if there is a discernible difference in these springs........

Hi Mike,

1) are you able to VISIBLY IDENTIFY the difference between a stock and (let's just say) a GUARDER recoil or hammer spring? i ask because i have about 6 or so springs that i am unsure of the manufacturer of. some examples are below.

perhaps there is a test to see the tension? perhaps color or length (although almost all identical, i can see some SLIGHT variation, it could also be my aging eyes...)

Recoil Springs- the only way that I am able to identify which one is stock and which is aftermarket are:

Color- the color of the stock recoil spring is usually like a... worn greyish tone.
some aftermarket manufacturers have stainless steel ones or ones coated with like black electrolyte paint to keep the tension in the spring.

Length- the stock one is usually shorter than most other springs. Guarder's for example is longer and has more coils...

Tension( or flimsiness)- the stock recoil spring can bend much easier than the latter spring.

Diameter- some aftermarket springs hug the recoil rod tighter while the stock ones usually are more loose around it.

Hammer springs- Man....I hate playing this game. 90% of the time I lose. Everytime LOL.

For the hammer springs, I usually just look for color. Usually the stock hammer spring will be black.

Other springs like Guarder springs, have like a... "worn paint" look to them.

The Guarder one that they sell separately from the recoil spring kit is advertised as "tempered steel". I'm sure you know how that looks like.

Shooter's Design springs, in contrast for example, have a dull stainless steel finish to them.

2) have you ever found doubling up a recoil spring to be beneficial? this is simply out of curiosity.

I remember when they first came out with these "Dual Recoil Springs" (DRS) back in '94 (I think), they were trying to pass it up to consumers that by having a DRS system, it reduced recoil. Many were skeptic because of the Glock 26's were able to chamber different rounds... which meant that energy outputs would be different with different types of ammunition....which meant that the recoil spring would have had to adjust to make this claim true.

Well...maybe not I guess. From a marketing perspective, if even it reduced recoil by like a fraction of what it was, then I guess you can call it true. lol. Those smart bastards. But I digress.

But many owners claimed that it hardly made any difference at all and that there were no real evidence (mathematical or practical) to support their claim.

Then they came out of a bunch of other reasons why they used the system. One was because of the length of guide rod and using a single spring set up, the spring won't have room to coil.

This lead people to believe that the recoil wasn't actually reduced (or increased) as a single spring set up would have to absorb the same amount of recoil energy as a DRS since the weight, projectile and distance of the slide's travel remained constant (or the same).

The only difference would have been is that at some point during the rear stroke, the DSR spring system would have had to gather enough resistance between the two springs to physically stop the slide and return it back to battery.

Then the Gen 4s came out and totally changed how the DRS system works. LOL.

Anyways, in airsoft terms, a "bounce back" spring is beneficiary for shortening the stroke of the slide....for whatever reason.

Shortening the stroke leads to faster chambering of BB, faster trigger reset and thus faster follow-up shots.

For a Marui Glock in particular, it's almost like installing shock buffers. For me, I use the DRS system to protect the front bolt screw from breaking....well...most of the time anyways.

It acts as a brace for when the slide comes to a stop on the rear stroke.

THe other benefit is actually to prevent the recoil springs from "over coiling" or "spinning" (I don't know how to describe it) and unscrewing the top of aftermarket guide rods. That's why some full length rods that don't use the DRS system come with those bearings at the end. lol. I don't know how it does it. But it does.

One other thing is reduced rear slide impact (I hesitate to use "recoil power") which translates to reduced FELT-recoil power at the wrists. In airsoft this really doesn't matter since...well...let's be honest here...they're toys and recoil is next to nothing compared to real guns.

The only airsoft guys that really care (based on my observations) about having this reduced felt recoil are the competitors that need fast target acquisition and
re-acquisition.

3) have you ever fitted an aluminum BBH and consequent Piston Head from a G17 into the smaller G26 counterpart? this is something i have always pondered.

Yes, A Glock 17 piston head should fit the G26.
Remember, the G26 was the father of the Marui Glocks. The Glock 17 was based on this design.

It like how the KSC Glocks were the very first iteration of the System 7...uhh...system(?). lol.

I think the only discernable difference in their piston head designs were that a G26 used the "piston cup" rather then the more modern piston head with the o-ring seal.

[Kratisto]

Originally Posted by e-luder

For a Marui Glock in particular, it's almost like installing shock buffers. For me, I use the DRS system to protect the front bolt screw from breaking....well...most of the time anyways.

I have observed that the Stark/VFC G17 comes with one, and there is other made by "Thunder Airsoft" : http://www.shootercbgear.com/product...oducts_id=7327

Does the use of dual recoil spring mitigate or solve the problem of broken frame front posts?

[Animalmother]

Originally Posted by Jagdalex

Just ordered this for my Tm G18C: http://tokyomodelcompany.kancart.com.../10061#!detail

It is the new model, the valve is not metal made anymore... wonder if it has to do with the high cycling of the full auto and the metal valve that could damage the nozzle. Anyway the older full Metal version is sold out everywhere.

Question for you guys. I heavily modified my G18C recently (went for PGC slide, guns modify aluminum bbu, zero hammer and AIP hammer set... I went for Ipsc shooting, the other day (the first time after assembling everything) and everything was working fine. Now last weekend all of a sudden even with the selector on semi it was shooting on full auto sometimes. I was pissed. Now I came back home and tried in putting back some of the original hammer assembly parts combined with the AIP ones (the reason I upgraded originally was because of a worn full auto sear) So I finally found that with all the AIP parts save for the guns modify zero hammer (I put back the original hammer instead) , the gun was shooting perfectly fine again and only in semi while on semi. That being said can someone explains me why the zero hammer is causing that?

I have been looking too. I gave up, let me no how that plastic valve works for you I just may order one too.

[e-luder]

Originally Posted by Kratisto

I have observed that the Stark/VFC G17 comes with one, and there is other made by "Thunder Airsoft" : http://www.shootercbgear.com/product...oducts_id=7327

Does the use of dual recoil spring mitigate or solve the problem of broken frame front posts?

No but it helps pro-long breakage.

[Jagd]

Originally Posted by Animalmother

I have been looking too. I gave up, let me no how that plastic valve works for you I just may order one too.

Sure... on DEN Trinity it is labeled as "Firefly floating valve new gen" so it SHOULD be as good as the original metal one. The plastic looks like derlin, a highly resistent/durable kind of plastic.

[MikeMcNair]

Originally Posted by turok_t

Michael,

I can answer some of your questions:
From my experience, Guarder has two kinds of hammer springs: One ... is sold with the recoil rod/spring as shown here:

I believe this to be very accurate, and i think your "guess" is correct in the below photo. THANK YOU!!

Based on your pictures, this is my guess:



2) have you ever found doubling up a recoil spring to be beneficial? this is simply out of curiosity.

Yes, you can do this to increase the ROF by using a second stage spring in series with your primary recoil spring. Or you can use a full length recoil spring with a 1/2 to 1/3 of another spring. However, you will need the plastic "C" clip to fit between the springs. The more springs you put, the more you short stroke the gun will be. However, if you put too much, your slide will not lock when the magazine is empty, and you may have issues chamber the next round. You can use one of the aftermarket upgrade guide rods (Shooters Design, Guarder) and use two springs fitted between the "C" clip.

i am sorry i did not mention that i have a DRS from the factory (all my questions are almost ALWAYS based solely on a G26/G27 as i like subcompacts (see my sig), and of course have upgraded it to a Guarder Stainless/Brass guide rod assembly, and have a polished factory unit as well. i just took this pic to illustrate (i'm terribly visual as a whole, so sorry for all the pics.)



my question was based on an idea of slide return: i don't so much care about the strength of the front screw post on the frame, nor am i using anything for competition of any sort. i simply plink, and build these for my son. he loves them, and i love tinkering: win win if you ask me!

back to the reason for my question: i LOVE a HARD HITTING slide as it returns to battery. Having owned many a RS (G26, G27, PPS 9mm, PT111 Mil Pro 3rd gen, XD sub compact 9, Hi Point C9, SR9c, etc) one of my all time favorite features of a side arm is the positive, heavy THUD of a slide returning into battery after loading, releasing the slide lock, etc.

now, that does certainly add an amount of vanity to my firearm experience, but the real reason is the forward motion of a slide can actually cause a person to drop a pistol easily, as the natural purchase on said pistol is less monitored by (let's just say, a 10 yr old child learning proper firearm control and safety) the user as recoil is absorbed by a stronger hold on the grip. (i hope this makes sense)

with all that being said, i would like this pistol to INCREASE the forward "COIL" (if RE- Coil is backward movement, i'll use COIL as forward... makes sense to me lol) thus my asking.

Originally Posted by e-luder

3) have you ever fitted an aluminum BBH and consequent Piston Head from a G17 into the smaller G26 counterpart? this is something i have always pondered.

Yes, A Glock 17 piston head should fit the G26.
Remember, the G26 was the father of the Marui Glocks. The Glock 17 was based on this design.

It like how the KSC Glocks were the very first iteration of the System 7...uhh...system(?). lol.

I think the only discernable difference in their piston head designs were that a G26 used the "piston cup" rather then the more modern piston head with the o-ring seal.

wonderful. i have the piston head with O-Ring installed you speak of, of course i still have the stock, and guarder versions of the "cup" as well. (these seam to have WAY too narrow a diameter to properly seal the Airsoft Surgeon loading nozzle/BBU. so i never use the stock cup.)

what intrigues me is the length of the head on the G17 aluminum piston position. see the RED section here....



now, this to me fills the rear of the BBH better than what the G26 uses, in turn leaving less OPEN space, and therefore no room for air to go aside from FORWARD to the BB, as well as pushing the BBH (and therefore slide) back with more force. in theory, this could increase not only FPS, but also felt recoil and coil as mentioned above. another win win if my theory is correct.

oh, one more thing that JUST HAPPENED....

i was lucky enough to get my slide stuck on the frame. yeah, it appears the hammer/sear are in the upright position, making the slide stuck on. this just occurred as i was taking the photo above.

so now i have to figure out what really made this happen, get it apart, and fix the issue. all this for a darn pic. FML.

[kar120c]

Here'e the pics.
The marui mag is that on the right and I must say that wear signs are so obvious also because I just tried the coke can method (with no succes)

The bb unit is very solid but the plastic nozzle is a little loose moving on right and left but I have inspected inside the frame with slide closed and it doesn't move. I have an Airsoft Surgeon nozzle but I can't use it because the inside sping is mounted differently forn the KJW and I need a little plastic cage which I think is in the Marui nozzle


caricare immagini

Originally Posted by MikeMcNair

hosting immagini


host immagini

can you post an image of the magazines lined up next to each other showing their "catch" points?

also, can you post an image of the mag catch removed from the frame please.

i feel this is where your issue lies. E-Luder posted a "coke can" shim method in this thread somewhere (just search the thread).

i personally have used each and every mag seal i could find, and frankly i HATED every one!!! the ONLY ones that have been consistent for me are the STOCK TM/KJW ones. i am unsure why.

it sounds crazy, but they have been perfect for me, and NO OTHERS have worked more than a short time.

please keep in mind, i have built all of my non KSC/KWA glocks from a combination of parts from TM and KJW, so i am very confident in their "interchangeability" with close regard to magazines, slides, BBH, trigger mech, etc.

the fact that the gun shows issues when a mag is inserted with slide in battery, and no issue when slide is locked back, would also lead me to request pictures of the inside of the assembled slide. instinct says the nozzle is too far forward in battery, and perhaps the BBH is causing that. it is really hard to diagnose things without holding them in hand as i am sure you can imagine.

how is the BBH seated in the slide? is it stable, solid, flat?

does the BBH rattle around at ALL, or is the rear site holding it well?

also, here is what i am looking for. in the following pics you will see 2 mag catch's, one is newer, one shows more wear. these were taken out of a KJW and a TM frame (i have both sitting RIGHT HERE). this is what i am looking for from you please.

please note: the KJW mag is currently in my TM frame, and the mag baseplate from the KJ is on the TM as well. in other words, i have everything mixed up on purpose.

[MikeMcNair]

quick question KAR120c:

are you referring to part # 9 in this photo? (the "cage")



if so, i have to tell you that i have purchased new 6 or 7 TM and KJW G26's and NEVER have i had one come with part#9, instead it is a small pin that goes in the nozzle. (it is apparently supposed to be the "cage" and a screw holding it, although i have yet to see one in real life. sounds odd, but it's true.

anyway, your magazines have inconsistent wear on them, which i find odd. i will look closer at the pictures shortly.

[Animalmother]

Originally Posted by Jagdalex

Sure... on DEN Trinity it is labeled as "Firefly floating valve new gen" so it SHOULD be as good as the original metal one. The plastic looks like derlin, a highly resistent/durable kind of plastic.

I wonder why they changed the valve. I will order one too, maybe its annarea thats not high stress

[kar120c]

Originally Posted by MikeMcNair

quick question KAR120c:

are you referring to part # 9 in this photo? (the "cage")



if so, i have to tell you that i have purchased new 6 or 7 TM and KJW G26's and NEVER have i had one come with part#9, instead it is a small pin that goes in the nozzle. (it is apparently supposed to be the "cage" and a screw holding it, although i have yet to see one in real life. sounds odd, but it's true.

anyway, your magazines have inconsistent wear on them, which i find odd. i will look closer at the pictures shortly.

Yes I think it is part 9, I too have the pin to keep nozzle spring in place. The inconsistent wear is due to my attempts to solve the issue using thin pieces of coke can glued to the mag catch