FAQ for Tokyo Marui Hi-Capa, 2011, 1911, MEU & Detonics type variants

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by kar120c

Anyone has experience with the Guarder metal frame and slide for the TM Desert Warrior?
Fitting problems or somethieng else?

http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsof...trikewarrior43

Installation "problems" are typical Guarder. Inconsistencies in manufacturing, lead to the inability to give you a list of consistent problems to look for. You'll just have to go with it and figure out the problems as you come to it. Of the few dozen Guarder setups I've built, not one has ever been the same, and only ONE was a drop in fit with no problems.

In fact, most times, the slide doesn't even fit to the frame it comes with, right out of the box. :P

Beyond that, there are annoying issues you'll have to deal with due to poor engineering on Guarder's part, but should be described by the retailer you're buying it from, or the instructions can also be sourced directly from Guarder.

[Kozzie]

thanks brian

[intinerious]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

Part of the art of gunsmithing is being able to see what's wrong and what's out of place the moment it's looked at. [snip to save forum space]

Hey Brian,

Thanks for the reply. I believe I nailed the problem down to the barrel lug is because of these reasons:

I tried inserting JUST the slide (not BBU or barrel) onto my lower frame and the slide can run along the rails of the lower frame smoothly.

I then insert the BBU only into the slide and repeat the process. I used to have the slide getting a lot of friction on the last bit of the lower frame rails where the sear disconnecter and hammer reset bits are popping out, but I've since fixed this with some heavy filing of the BBU unit since it's much easier to do than trying to file the insides of the slide. The BBU + slide now can slide front and back from the lower rail frames easily.

I insert the chrome barrel into the gun and without the magazine in the gun it cycles, although I can tell that the rear barrel lug is rubbing onto the top of the barrel (will state why later). When I insert a magazine into the gun, the slide can still be cycled manually, but as soon as I fire the gun it starts jamming up as soon as the top of the barrel disappears into the slide. Pulling the slide backwards is really hard to do (encountering massive friction) and pushing it forward (as if to clear an out of battery malfunction) is slightly easier and is actually the only way to fix the problem.

I install a Bell 1911 metal barrel or the PGC metal outer barrel for the MEU kit into the gun and the gun cycles fine, even with the magazine in it. In fact, I can pop off 18 shots with the slide locking back just like my old plastic bodied MEU with the guarder spring (I find the guarder spring too stiff; the Hurricane one is 'springier' and that is the recoil spring I'm using at the moment). The PGC and Bell 1911 barrels also make the slide cycle smoother manually than with the Hurricane chrome barrel, hence I believe that the chrome barrel, although it allows me to manually cycle the slide, is nevertheless rubbing against the top of the slide.

I believe the chrome barrel has a problem whenever the hop up chamber shifts around during the gun's firing operation as the jams onto happen when I fire the gun with the gas propellant to cycle the slide. I had some inconsistent results with the slide actually functioning without a jam with the chrome barrel installed, but the gun only cycled once or twice before the jams happened again.

Anyway, I know it's hard to diagnose via internet forums and I may have been somewhat asking for too much in my previous post, but I just wanted to confirm whether my suspicions were correct on where the issue of my gun with the chrome barrel lied. Thanks again for your response btw :P I have since given the gun to a gunsmith in HK to fix the barrel problem as I believe my problem requires a dremel to fix rather than labouring through filing down the barrel lug with a metal file or sandpaper. I had initially thought this would be a quick and easy confirmation of my diagnosis since you said you had encountered the same-ish problems with the four Covert II kits you had installed for customers :P Thanks again for the reply! XD

[ILLusion]

For what it's worth, whenever I encounter an issue with an unknown source of friction, I just look for wear in areas that shouldn't have wear, or improper wear patterns.

[kar120c]

Yes, i have troubled in the past with the kit for the Marui Detonics.
I read somewhere about the Hurricane kit but this is only for the Meu so I should change all the parts inside the slide
This is the upgrade kit http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/hurricane...marui-meu.html

Originally Posted by ILLusion

http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsof...trikewarrior43

Installation "problems" are typical Guarder. Inconsistencies in manufacturing, lead to the inability to give you a list of consistent problems to look for. You'll just have to go with it and figure out the problems as you come to it. Of the few dozen Guarder setups I've built, not one has ever been the same, and only ONE was a drop in fit with no problems.

In fact, most times, the slide doesn't even fit to the frame it comes with, right out of the box. :P

Beyond that, there are annoying issues you'll have to deal with due to poor engineering on Guarder's part, but should be described by the retailer you're buying it from, or the instructions can also be sourced directly from Guarder.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by kar120c

Yes, i have troubled in the past with the kit for the Marui Detonics.
I read somewhere about the Hurricane kit but this is only for the Meu so I should change all the parts inside the slide
This is the upgrade kit http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/hurricane...marui-meu.html

Sorry, is there a question in there? Or was it all just a statement?

[kar120c]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

Sorry, is there a question in there? Or was it all just a statement?

A question have you experience with Hurricane kit?

[intinerious]

Originally Posted by kar120c

A question have you experience with Hurricane kit?

Have you not been reading the last few posts between Brian and myself?

Sure we didn't talk about the DW kit but the other two kits, namely the Covert II and the SIS but I thought I made it clear that since both kits seem to suffer from one of the same problems and that Hurricane is the sole producer of all three kits I do not see why the DW would be any different in it's manufacturing process compared with the SIS or the Covert II. Brian already wrote a lot in regards to the Covert II kits and I think I explained sufficiently well about my experience with the SIS kit.

Originally Posted by ILLusion

For what it's worth, whenever I encounter an issue with an unknown source of friction, I just look for wear in areas that shouldn't have wear, or improper wear patterns.

Thanks for the advice. I saw that the chrome on the barrel chamber area already started to have some scratches, hence that adds to what I suspect is friction between the rear barrel lug and the barrel itself. Anyway I'll report back on what exactly did the gunsmith do to my gun after he gets that problem fixed!

[kar120c]

Ok, sorry, now i have read.
In some of your posts I did't understood all because of languge problem (i am italian) but in conclusion I have undesrtood that both Guarder and Hurricane kits fits incostantly the Marui parts and there is not a kit better than other, sure?
I have

Originally Posted by intinerious

Have you not been reading the last few posts between Brian and myself?

Sure we didn't talk about the DW kit but the other two kits, namely the Covert II and the SIS but I thought I made it clear that since both kits seem to suffer from one of the same problems and that Hurricane is the sole producer of all three kits I do not see why the DW would be any different in it's manufacturing process compared with the SIS or the Covert II. Brian already wrote a lot in regards to the Covert II kits and I think I explained sufficiently well about my experience with the SIS kit.



Thanks for the advice. I saw that the chrome on the barrel chamber area already started to have some scratches, hence that adds to what I suspect is friction between the rear barrel lug and the barrel itself. Anyway I'll report back on what exactly did the gunsmith do to my gun after he gets that problem fixed!

[intinerious]

Originally Posted by kar120c

Ok, sorry, now i have read.
In some of your posts I did't understood all because of languge problem (i am italian) but in conclusion I have undesrtood that both Guarder and Hurricane kits fits incostantly the Marui parts and there is not a kit better than other, sure?

I think there is a better kit, but I'm not too sure. I know that the PGC kit requires more fitting than the Hurricane kits that I've had experience with (1 Covert II and 1 SIS) and if I remember correctly the NOVA kit have a lot of fitting to be done too (You'll need someone who has experience with the NOVA kits to confirm).

Actually do you just want a metal kit for your 1911 or do you have any specific metal kit you want to buy? I wanted the Kimber SIS and my friend wanted the Kimber Custom Covert II and since no other company besides Hurricane make them we had to get the Hurricane one. The Desert Warrior would be the same. All of the kits require fitting anyway (I think Brian mentioned a while back that the VFC MEU kit had the least amount of fitting issues, only needed to cut off the tab of the BBU?) so if you're inexperienced I suggest you bring it to a gunsmith to fit the kit for you in case you scratch it up on the outside or screw something up so badly that the kit becomes useless. If you think you can fit the kit yourself I'll leave your question to be answered by someone with more experience than myself :P

As far as I can tell from the airsoft gunsmiths in Hong Kong they charge relatively the same price for fitting the internals into the metal kit (whether it takes more fitting or not) so honestly if you're going to get the kit fitted by a gunsmith I'll just get whatever type of metal kit you want subject to the quality of the materials and finish used on the kit.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by kar120c

A question have you experience with Hurricane kit?

The Hurricane Desert Warrior? Yes, I have. Exact same (inconsistency) problems as with the Kimber Covert kit, particularly in molding issues.

Originally Posted by kar120c

...I have undesrtood that both Guarder and Hurricane kits fits incostantly the Marui parts and there is not a kit better than other, sure?

For the Kimber Desert Warrior? Unfortunately, Hurricane is the manufacturer of that specific model conversion kit for the Marui platform.

But if you mean in general, there are a few other manufacturers who are much better (but also much more expensive.)

Originally Posted by intinerious

I think there is a better kit, but I'm not too sure. I know that the PGC kit requires more fitting than the Hurricane kits that I've had experience with (1 Covert II and 1 SIS) and if I remember correctly the NOVA kit have a lot of fitting to be done too (You'll need someone who has experience with the NOVA kits to confirm).

Nova is actually one of the most consistent manufacturers of full conversion kits on the market. I would put PGC/Pro-win just slightly below them, only because their Warrior kit sucks huge ones, but besides that one screw up, the rest of their kits are consistent and relatively headache free.

Actually, the VFC kit (they only have one style) is the EASIEST to install... and get this, it's die-casted. I've installed a half dozen of them, and not only are they really cheap to buy, but they go together without a hitch. No mods required. Just follow the instructions and you're home free! The only caveat, is that they only come in the MEU early model style...

(VFC doesn't require the BBU tab to be cut off. It's Guarder that requires that, which I think is absolutely stupid engineering.)

As for HK gunsmiths charging the same price for all kits.... let me put it this way: if a gunsmith is charging the same amount regardless of the kit, then he's either charging you more for the kit to compensate for labor time (assuming you're buying the kit from him as well), or they don't know what they're doing, and you'll increase the chances of receiving a complete built gun that doesn't function 100%. I've had to fix a few of these already for customers not happy with their custom overseas orders...

... anyways, not all gunsmiths who charge cheap are crap. There is just more crap than there is good - if you can sift your way through the mess, then good on you. As long as you are not paying for an overzealous noob gunsmith's learning curve.

[intinerious]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

Nova is actually one of the most consistent manufacturers of full conversion kits on the market. I would put PGC/Pro-win just slightly below them, only because their Warrior kit sucks huge ones, but besides that one screw up, the rest of their kits are consistent and relatively headache free.

Actually, the VFC kit (they only have one style) is the EASIEST to install... and get this, it's die-casted. I've installed a half dozen of them, and not only are they really cheap to buy, but they go together without a hitch. No mods required. Just follow the instructions and you're home free! The only caveat, is that they only come in the MEU early model style...

(VFC doesn't require the BBU tab to be cut off. It's Guarder that requires that, which I think is absolutely stupid engineering.)

As for HK gunsmiths charging the same price for all kits.... let me put it this way: if a gunsmith is charging the same amount regardless of the kit, then he's either charging you more for the kit to compensate for labor time (assuming you're buying the kit from him as well), or they don't know what they're doing, and you'll increase the chances of receiving a complete built gun that doesn't function 100%. I've had to fix a few of these already for customers not happy with their custom overseas orders...

... anyways, not all gunsmiths who charge cheap are crap. There is just more crap than there is good - if you can sift your way through the mess, then good on you. As long as you are not paying for an overzealous noob gunsmith's learning curve.

Hey Brian,

Thanks for the update in regards to the brands above. I think many people will find that info useful if they want to upgrade their 1911s with metal kits since I believe it's the first time that the issues with the fitting between the brands have been written in one post! :P

Anyway, I remembered you said that the VFC kits were the easiest to fit (in fact drop in from what you're saying now!). I think I came across the need to do the guarder mod for the VFC kit from somewhere else on the other forum I visit where there was a review of the VFC kit. Anyway, can you tell me what's so notable that the VFC is diecasted and can drop-in fit that you have to point it out? I'm just curious to your observations about it; is it because with diecasting the molds will wear out sooner or later (leading to inconsistent kits when the molds wear out but VFC seem to have mitigated that)? Can you also explain why the Guarder 'mod' is a stupid design? I thought that little tab that is required to remove is not a load bearing piece (don't remember exactly where that part was but it's at the front of the BBU right?) so it's not much of an issue to remove that part?

With the NOVA kits, I thought there were plenty of small issues that doesn't make the kit a drop in fit (with the small issues being a hassle if one doesn't have a dremel at hand). I think I've mistaken my thoughts above with the NOVA control parts (thumb safety, grip safety, slide catch, etc.)? I'm planning to change my current SIS Kimber to look as close to the RS as possible so I'll be buying the NOVA grip safety, MSH, bushing, and recoil spring plug (Don't think I've missed any parts...); if it's not a hassle for you I'd like to hear what you have to say about the fitting of those parts :P

My friend with the Covert II kit used to have a PGC MEU kit...he got a 'friend' who works at a wargame site (since closed because of extremely negative reviews in regards to the staff's attitude) and he said it took a lot of fitting and the 'friend' ALMOST screwed up the kit. Hence that's why I believed the PGC kits required more fitting than the Hurricane one since the Covert II's problem merely rests on the barrel/slide lugs and BBU. The lower frame was a tight drop-in fit and the lower frame worked with my SIS slide assembly installed (even though the hammer dropped infrequently; I think I nailed that problem down to te tight fit between the internal and eternal frame area where the sear disconnector resides; a bit of sanding in that part should loosen the disconnector enough to allow the lower frame to function 100%).

As for gunsmiths charging the same price for the kits; what I mean was for each individual gunsmith I think they generally charge the same price if they were asked to install a Hurricane or PGC or NOVA kit. If they charge more for, say the Guarder kit because it requires more labour hours, I don't think they'll charge less for the easier fitting kit because they get to charge more based on the kit with the most labour hours involved and in Hong Kong is very VERY easy to prey on airsofter's lack of knowledge in order for the gunsmiths to earn money (I know many people in the local scene...some international school kids too, that have never even tried splitting their M4s in half by removing the pins that hold the upper and lower receivers together...coupled with the imperfect shimming almost all stock gearboxes have and the lack of initiative for HK airsofters to actually take a look inside their guns gunsmiths can charge HKD 100 for INSPECTION FEE here in Hong Kong. Inspection fee only if you decide not to get the gun fixed...and if you get the gun fixed, any random parts they throw into your gun to 'fix' the problem you'll have to pay for it).

I have some luck in getting my SIS kit together and bringing it to a 'reputable' gunsmith (quotes because he once told me that running a 11.1v 50c lipo will blow up my AIP High Speed Motor..but he's great with installing aftermarket kits on pistols from what I've heard) and telling him exactly what I want to get fixed (the barrel lug and removing my NOVA match trigger to install the Hurricane solid match trigger) so he's only charging me HKD 100 for labour, which is probably the lowest I can pay for in Hong Kong assuming I don't have any connections with any of the gunsmiths in Hong Kong.

Oh oh one last question sorry :P Again I want to build my SIS as close to the RS as possible and the recoil spring plug on the RS has a flat face. As far as I can tell only WA makes those recoil spring plugs with the flat face so I was wondering whether you know the WA recoil spring plugs can fit the Marui (well Hurricane now) frame and recoil spring.

Thanks again for reading through all my long posts Brian, I really appreciate it :P

[ILLusion]

In general, die cast products (especially the cheaply done casts found in many airsoft products) have very loose tolerances, poor surface finish, and a poorly finished product will also have a lot of molding flash. In general, the inconsistency is the most annoying part, and is why it makes installing one Guarder kit a completely different experience from installing another kit, even if it's the same model and coming from the same production batch!

Poor casts also have surface imperfections (pitting is common), mis-casted areas (due to poor injection), and die casting will also degrade over time, even if you leave it to sit there. The environment will actually cause it to corrode, particularly on uncoated areas.

VFC just happens to do it better - I assume because this is because they just focused all their effort on ONE model, versus other companies who try to pump out tons of different models and have to spread out the development costs of creating multiple die casting moulds (it is very expensive to machine a mould. Start up cost is high)

As for the requirement of Guarder Hi-Capa/1911/MEU slides requiring the blowback unit tab to be snapped off, it's stupid engineering because it renders the blowback unit completely unusable with any other brand of slide. All it would take, is for a minor change to their casting mould, and it saves end users the grief and incompatibility. Same goes for their 226 kits... it has an even stupider mod requirement to the BBU, that MOST users out there do not have the tools to perform. And all it would take, is two small channels to be created in the slide.

Bad engineering. :P It's about usability, not durability.

As for Nova kits, I haven't had the problems you're mentioning. Almost all the kits I've had were pretty much drop in fits, except for some slight difficulties fitting the BBU in straight. Some minor filing is required, but that's all I've had to do.

Regarding gunsmiths, what you're describing in regards to gunsmiths charging an inspection fee is not unreasonable. $100HKD works out to roughly $20CAD, and that's how much I charge for inspection fees as well. Unless you're my team mate or attending an event that I'm attending where I've committed my leisure time to the hobby, I will charge you that fee. Simple as that. If you're commanding my time to look at your gun for whatever reason, then there's a value to my time. Not for the act itself - but for my time, and as it is, I don't even have that much time to look at guns (I have an entire racks of guns waiting to be looked at, fixed, or custom built right now, as we speak...) I'm not going to take the time out of my day to give you a free opinion or suggestion for it unless I'm being compensated for it the business helps to support my livelihood in some way. Otherwise, I'd rather be spending the time making money to pay off a house mortgage, put food in my kid's mouths, pay for their education, and to buy my wife (and my mistress) designer handbags. LOL

I also absorb the inspection fee if you decide to go with my suggested mods, and obviously, you'll be paying for the upgrade parts - I sure as hell won't be paying for your parts!



As for WA... sorry, don't know. My experience with them is limited at best. If anything, you would have an easier time getting that answer for yourself, as you're on the ground in HK with massive access to parts. We don't have such luxury here... God knows Kwong Wah is my third home whenever I'm in HK (second is LKF. LOL)

[tunabreath]

I have one cosmetic sourcing question with a couple of associated technical questions:
Is there any front end kit/compensator/frame combination that could be added to a TM hi capa to give it the same look and layout as a WA 4.3 Pro Killer, such as this?
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=91132

Not necessarily exactly like that, but I'm thinking mainly of a shorter 4.3 slide with a fixed barrel/front section which brings it closer to a 5.1 in length.

From the standpoint of building a competition pistol, would it be possible to fix the inner/outer barrel to a front end block attached directly to the frame?
My reasoning is, a setup like this keeps a lighter 4.3 slide to have a very quick cycle time and reduced recoil, while maintaining a longer sight radius (if the front sight is placed on the front block rather than the slide) and barrel.
As far as fixing the inner barrel to the frame through the front block, if possible, this should help to maintain consistency when using optics mounted to the frame, wouldn't it?
Does the inner/outer barrel assembly need to remain floating for proper function? It's semi-rigidly held to the frame at the chamber end, yes?

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by tunabreath

<snip>

One brand name:

"Freedom Art"


One key phrase:

"Prohibited items"...... but possible.

btw, I'm selling a setup similar to this right now, but for 5.1" length slide. I'd recently sold the 4.3" setup, unfortunately. That one was also a beast.


For what it's worth, you could mount a 4.3 slide with a 5.1 barrel in a frame like this, and the barrel would be 100% supported by the comp-block. These are still my favorite setups, as it provides the utmost excellence in performance. I've won quite a few tournaments with a setup like this.