Help a happy AEG owner learn about pistols

[MaciekA]

I've been following the thread "Best performing full metal GBB pistol" with interest. I've carried springer pistols before, but given how seriously I've treated every other part of my loadout and armoury, these would now represent a hugely lopsided investment. They don't shoot well and are quite unreliable. I have been trying to wrap my mind around how to get "into" gas pistols, blowback or otherwise, to the same level that I've gotten into AEGs. I'm looking for a good sidearm investment and possibly the beginning of a proper collection, with some eventual tech skills down the road.

I now have a solid collection of AEGs in rotation -- enough to have at least a couple stable rifles at any given time for myself and as stable backups/loaners. I spent most of the summer training myself how to fix most AEG problems I've heard of, built a project rifle from the ground up, etc. The information to do all this was easy to come by. The information resources for pistols seem to be much much weaker than with AEGs. You can find first AEG FAQs everywhere, but gas pistol information is either not there or crazy outdated, or irrelevant.

What I want to hear about is the stuff "everybody knows" but no pistol n00b can possibly fish out of one place without many months of meticulous note-taking. There seems to be a river of common knowledge on ASC that I'm missing out on, stuff like "you better update that Marui's plastic slide to metal if you plan to play in the heat" or "WE pistols are terrible". I've been reading what I can, and I've been interviewing people at games for the last few games in the last month or so, trying to see what people like, don't like, and what's reliable. The answers are all over the map. KWA, KJW, Marui, and of course, ACM.

Given my somewhat-permissive budget for this venture, I'd like to be able to avoid at least some of the initial heartache of owning the AEGs people get because they're not listening to the wisdom of the crowd and just get a Tokyo Marui pistol, or something that is the equivalent level of precise tolerances and reliability reputation. I've watched friends get burned by buying either inexpensive stuff that blew up in the first one or two games (Meister..) or buy expensive gas rifles that never ended up working in any gameable form at all, ever (WE SCAR). I've had an ACM TM clone pistol demonstrated to me in a convincing stress test, and that was pretty damned impressive, but its price is too close to real TMs available on ASC for me to jump at it. I don't know much about my budget yet, but I do know I can easily stomach the stock price of the TMs I've seen in the AV retailer section.

Questions for the Wise Ones:

1) Which pistol is the closest analogue to a "version 2 M4 with easily replacable parts" in the pistol world? (emphasis on TM if it helps answer this question). What parts are upgradable/changable? Like with AEGs, are there companies which cluster around upgrading given models/brands?

2) If upgrading internals to improve reliability is an absolutely-recommended must, then what are the minimum must-have upgrades to survive lots of games in various weather extremes? (hurray for Ontario weather swings!)

3) Tech-wise, what do I need to teach myself to be a happy gas pistol owner?

4) What are some of the first things to fail? Is there a standard takedown-and-make-it-good procedure after purchase, like with AEGs? (I always re-shim, clean and re-lube now after buying AEGs and this has been a huge help).

5) What aspects of pistols do noobs think is important but wise old-timers know is unimportant? In AEGs, I find new people overvalue certain features while ignoring advice from people who know money and effort is better-spent.

6) Assuming a decent budget and wanting the experience sooner rather than later, what will I want to add to my gear loadout to have my pistol comfortably at my side at all times? What are some stupid choices I'd just end up replacing?

7) I need help in developing a smart budget. What should I be looking to spend? What are the distinct "budget buckets" in this space?

I'm really hoping that some of the stuff I learn here will be useful to others.

[turok_t]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

1) Which pistol is the closest analogue to a "version 2 M4 with easily replacable parts" in the pistol world? (emphasis on TM if it helps answer this question). What parts are upgradable/changable? Like with AEGs, are there companies which cluster around upgrading given models/brands?

TM Hicapa. Upgradeable parts include frame, slide, trigger, hammer, hop up, inner barrel, sear, disconnector, sights, etc. Most of the parts can be upgraded. Companes that offer upgrades include Guarder, Airsoft Surgeon, Nova, PGC, firefly, nineball, PDI, shooter design 5KU (not recommended). Those are the main ones if I remember correctly. My suggestion is to browse through pistol parts brands from major oversea retailers.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

2) If upgrading internals to improve reliability is an absolutely-recommended must, then what are the minimum must-have upgrades to survive lots of games in various weather extremes? (hurray for Ontario weather swings!)

Hop up rubber and inner barrel for increase accuracy, not really a necessity, but it would be a priority on my list. Although not really an internal upgrade, I would definitely upgrade to a metal slide/outer barrel with a stronger recoil spring (to help return the metal/heaver slide to battery) for increase realism.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

3) Tech-wise, what do I need to teach myself to be a happy gas pistol owner?

The best thing to teach yourself is learning how the gun works. Knowing how it works can help you identify and troubleshoot problems. Its quite fun when you find out how it works.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

4) What are some of the first things to fail? Is there a standard takedown-and-make-it-good procedure after purchase, like with AEGs? (I always re-shim, clean and re-lube now after buying AEGs and this has been a huge help).

If you are buying a TM glock, as in the picture you posted above, the front post on the frame with break. You can ask Qlong or Racing Maniac. Lube the slide/frame rails, make sure your piston oring is well lubed with silicon oil. Those are the basics.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

5) What aspects of pistols do noobs think is important but wise old-timers know is unimportant? In AEGs, I find new people overvalue certain features while ignoring advice from people who know money and effort is better-spent.

A lot of noobs like high FPS and recoil/kick back from the slide..For more advance users, they tend to like increase accuracy, gas efficiency, short stroking of the slide for increase speed, and even IPSC. Im not saying that newbies like one thing, or advance players like the other, its just my general observations.

I will defer the last two questions to other members..

[L473ncy]

I don't claim to be a total expert on gas guns but I've figured out a few things.

1) TM Hi-Capa series. Solid pistols and upgrade parts are plenty available. If you have any problems Illusion is the resident expert on them. Personally I like the 1911 MEU (AFAIK some/a lot of parts are swappable between the 1911/MEU/Hicapa) since they're all "1911 based" (the Hi-Capa just being a "2011" double stack "race" gun for competition shooting).

2) I would say hop up and probably hi flow valves. 9Ball supposedly makes a kickass hop up rubber but as of late I've heard comments about how their quality has gone downhill. Other than that see if you can buy parts off Illusion, I'm pretty sure all the stuff he carries is the highest of quality.

3) Understand the system. Basically it's liquid -> gas expansion that propels a BB down a metal tube. In between there's various springs that release other springs and release the hammer down to hit the dump valve on the mag which in turn dumps a set amount of gas into the chamber area pushing gas backwards (giving blowback function using Newtons laws that every action has equal + opposite reaction, in the case of NBB's since it's "rigid" the gas can only escape in one direction and all of it goes towards propelling the BB) and forwards (to propel the BB).

4) I honestly just take it and play with my pistols as they were out of the box (or in the case of used pistols how they were sent to me). That doesn't mean that maintenance isn't important, I relube and clean my slide, slide rails, mags, etc. once in a while. Just watch this video if you want to do regular maintenance: Gas Blowback Regular Maintenance - RedWolf Airsoft - RWTV - YouTube

Note that I personally use 100% 25wt. silicone RC Shock oil. A bit thicker than what most others use but it's "stickier" and will last longer. You can go down to 15wt. if you want but the AI stuff IIRC is something like 1.5wt. silicone oil. Also a bit of a weird thing that I found works is chain lube for bikes (ie. Finishline Teflon dry lube). That stuff is amazing, I highly recommend them for AEG gears if you're using your AEG in "dirty" conditions (based off biking definitions). Basically I've found that if you play in dusty conditions regular AEG greases tend to attract dirt and such. A solution to this is make sure the lubes you use are "dry" and that means things like Graphite powder and Teflon drylube (I'm thinking of trying out the Finishline Ceramic Wax lube next but that will be a long time before I use up all of my other chain lubes, even if I regularly lube up my bike chains).

5) Ef-Pee-Ess, Ef-Pee-Ess, Ef-Pee-Ess. You don't need to upgrade to hiflow valves, rocket valves, recoil springs, and all that to be shooting 400 FPS on your pistol. After all it's supposed to be a sidearm for engaging below MED's. The only time you should be aiming for 400 FPS or something like that is when you're doing a proof of concept project.

6) Boots, eyepro, BDU's, chestrig, pouches, good mags, gloves, sling, etc. Once you have all that stuff then delve into pistols if it's something you really want. To be honest I've only pulled out a pistol maybe less than 10 times in all of my airsoft career (not counting pistol only games) and gotten maybe 3 kills with it.

7) I highly recommend the cansoft TM Glocks if that's your thing. The price IMO is a bit high at the moment but I suspect that the prices will drop down to around ~270 for them once they become more commonplace. Yes it's not as cool as the black guns that you can get if you pay a little bit more for but if you're looking for something solid that OOTB will work and you don't plan on replacing everything it's a pretty good deal. If that's not your thing then feel free to peruse the retailers section. I recommend TM, KSC/KWA, Socom Gear, and Western Arms Magna/SCW/2/3 (but this is more of a collectors type gun than anything).

Also avoid WE, on occasion you'll get an awesome pistol but the QC IMO is just not there, is hit and miss, and can widely vary. Someone might get an awesome pistol from them but if you buy another one from a different batch it might suck. I've seen my fair share of WE's with problems but I've also seen some pretty good performing WE pistols too (although I didn't directly compare them it was probably on par with TM stuff).

[TaroBear]

The only thing that I can add that many, more knowledge users have left out is the budget thing. In my experience, many more things can go wrong with a GBB than an AEG. Also, if you're planning on upgrade, do it all at once. I made the mistake of thinking I could do it in chunks whenever it fancied me/whenever my budget told me I could. Best just to run it stock, hard as it might be (although it's really okay with a Marui), until you have a substantial amount of cash stashed away, then do it all at once. Otherwise you'll find that many of your upgrades just compliment each other, and if you lack one you're really not getting the benefit of the other.

I went from one of those guys who was "I'd like a nice metal kit for my pistol" to one of those "I need those exact grips and stainless barrel bushing" guys. It's amazing how quickly you'll want to put more into it, and the money certainly stacks up. I know for certain that two of my pistols are easily into the 4 digits now, and they're nowhere near complete or as fancy as the pistols you see in the pistols media threads.

[ThunderCactus]

Thing's I've learned about pistols;
1) Buy name brand, KWA - PTP series, KSC, tokyo marui. 2 of my friends and I had amazing luck with the HFC M9 berettas, but the company has an uncomfortable lemon rate.
2) Apart from the hop rubber, don't ever. Ever. EVER. Upgrade a stock pistol. EVER. It's name brand, it's reliable, it WORKS. Don't fuck with it if it aint broke. And don't do it all at once because you'll never figure out what part is preventing the gun from working. Amos and I spent $900 on our matching TM MEU's. He gave up on his, and the only reason I got mine working is because I could take it to work and do all the fine detail machining to get it all fitting properly.
3) Unless you enjoy tinkering and tweaking, and are an experienced machinist, don't buy anything but brand name upgrade parts that are guaranteed to fit or OEM parts.
Even some high quality upgrades have fitment issues in some pistols
4) Maintenance. Maintenance. Maintenance. This isn't an AEG that you can run for 2 years without opening it and it'll still work. Every game, strip it, clean it, lube it. Store mags with gas in them.
5) Style, some pistols work better than others. The P226 is just designed better internally. 1911's are good, but a huge disadvantage is their thin mags. It drastically reduces your gas capacity.

Other than the strict maintenance, buying reliable brand name, and do the most minimum upgrading possible, pistols can be pretty reliable. I had my HFC beretta that shot like a sniper rifle at 200 feet, lasted 2 years, never had any mags leak. Only problem was it didn't have any upgrade parts and it was starting to wear. Brand new it shot off it's whole mag from 5-30 degrees. By after 2 years of regular use, it only shot well above 22 degrees.

Remember, a pistol is your life saver, you want one that works when you need it to work!

[surebet]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

1) Which pistol is the closest analogue to a "version 2 M4 with easily replacable parts" in the pistol world? (emphasis on TM if it helps answer this question). What parts are upgradable/changable? Like with AEGs, are there companies which cluster around upgrading given models/brands?

My personnal favorites:
- TM HiCapa (all models)
- TM Glock 17
- KSC Glock 19

Pistols are a bit less polarized than AEGs, there are a few dominant makes and models but there aren't any specific models that imposes themselves as the M4 of the GBB world.

Just stick with TM and KSC/KWA, choose a few models that suit your tastes and check to see what kind of reviews and aftermarket support they have.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

2) If upgrading internals to improve reliability is an absolutely-recommended must, then what are the minimum must-have upgrades to survive lots of games in various weather extremes? (hurray for Ontario weather swings!)

Depending on what you end up buying, you shouldn't feel obligated to upgrade anything. I've have stock KSC Glocks for years that haven't shown any issues.

As with anything gas, temperature is hard to manage. If it's really hot outside, pass by the chrono to be sure your pistol isn't over the limit.

For cold weather, any gas gun will struggle to shoot. CO2 mags might allow you to game in lower °Cs, but if you're planing on playing in the middle of winter only a springer will be useful, barring external air setups.

Not much you can do, just a fact of gas vs cold.

Lookup upgrade paths for particular models depending on what you want to do with it, I usually change the valves and add a tightbore.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

3) Tech-wise, what do I need to teach myself to be a happy gas pistol owner?

How to properly operate a propane adaptor, mainly the amount of oil to add.

How to strip, clean, diagnose and reassemble your pistol. Taking KSC Glocks as an exemple, the whole thing can be done in under 10 minutes and is rather easy to learn.

Refer to YouTube for model specific guides and don't disassemble more than you need.

Have proper tools, LocTite, tefflon tape, oil, etc...

Originally Posted by MaciekA

4) What are some of the first things to fail? Is there a standard takedown-and-make-it-good procedure after purchase, like with AEGs? (I always re-shim, clean and re-lube now after buying AEGs and this has been a huge help).

Depends on the model, some things:
- Cracked plastic slide from propane use (metal slides are more fun anyway)
- Leaky seals (leave a bit of gas in the mags at all time, oil them properly)
- Loading nozzles on certain models (A KSC M11a1 will snap it's nozzle near instantly if you insert the mag without cocking the bolt)
- Sand can fuck up all kinds of things, don't drop them. If sand comes into direct contact with the mags or the gun, stop use, strip and clean EVERYTHING

Originally Posted by MaciekA

5) What aspects of pistols do noobs think is important but wise old-timers know is unimportant? In AEGs, I find new people overvalue certain features while ignoring advice from people who know money and effort is better-spent.

- Going balls out on upgrades (and I have a near 2k$ Capa to prove it)
- Avoid WE pistols at all cost
- Buying a metric ton of mags (3-4 total is a nice starting number)
- Avoid automatic pistols as a first purchase

Originally Posted by MaciekA

6) Assuming a decent budget and wanting the experience sooner rather than later, what will I want to add to my gear loadout to have my pistol comfortably at my side at all times? What are some stupid choices I'd just end up replacing?

After the gun itself, the holster is the most important piece to look into. I scrapped a KSC Glock by cheaping out on this back in 06.

Pistols are pretty much the same mesurements as their real life counterparts, so after choosing the model look into real gear forums to see what works in real life.

If you want to go the dropleg route, duct tape 2-3 pounds of stuff mid thigh and see how it feels. If you're like me, you'll find out that you'll either have issues with a pistol flopping around or being secure to a point movement is weird.

Start stock with a good holster and a loaded mag pouch, branch out.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

7) I need help in developing a smart budget. What should I be looking to spend? What are the distinct "budget buckets" in this space?

I'm really hoping that some of the stuff I learn here will be useful to others.

The most expensive issue barring complete loss is a slide replacement, 75-200+$ depending on the quality you are looking for.

I'd keep a few consummables on hand, like an extra valve, a few seals, a hop-up. There's nothing too expensive to deal with but you might as well grab a few items with an order rather than pay seperate shipping and wait weeks for that critical piece to come.

Each model has specific failure points, lookup reviews. Stock up on a few.

[Kozzie]

The M4 of pistols would have to be the Hi-Capa. Several brands make them but TM is IMO the best, special consideration goes to Western Arms. There are obscene amounts of different upgrade parts for the Hi-Capa. They're the base for 90% of all race guns out there. That being said there are upgrades available for most kinds of pistols as long as you buy a good brand (TM, KWA/KSC, WA). Best thing to do is to try a bunch of pistols out. See what feels comfortable in your hand and what is naturally to point for you. Be aware of what mags the pistol takes, single stack mags can often hold more bb's than they have the gas to fire. Also large and uncommon pistols can be difficult to find holsters and mag pouches for.

The biggest thing I find people place too much stock into when buying their first pistol is a metal slide. A plastic slide will cycle much quicker and consume less gas. Brands like WE and other clones trade on people absolutely needing to have a metal slide when IMO you're far better off getting a plastic TM. Tm pistols are quite robust and while not designed to run it they can hold up quite well on propane. The only parts that MAY break on a stock TM run on propane are the slide and the nozzel, they cost around $10 each to replace.

When it comes to upgrades I've found it's best to go bit by bit. This way you'll be able to best determine if that part has the desired affect or if it's causing an issue and needs to be modified or junked. It's much more difficult to isolate an issue if you dump a bunch of parts in all at once. Custom pistol builds can be full of modification and trial and error. That being said there are certain upgrades that should be done in groups like: metal slide, metal barrel and heavier recoil spring. And there is certainly nothing wrong with running a stock pistol, if it ain't broke.....

The three keys to being a happy GBB pistol owner are maintenance, maintenance and maintenance. Clean and lube your pistol often, make sure to store your mags with gas in them (just how much differs depending on who you ask) and keep the seals on your mags properly oiled to avoid leaks. A good quality pistol should be ready to shoot straight out of the box but it can't hurt to take it apart and make sure all the moving parts are properly lubed.

As far as Gear goes the most important thing is to get a good holster that will retain your pistol properly and be quick to draw (Serpa, Safariland). I'm personally not a big fan of lanyards, I find them to be cumbersome. I'm also not a big fan of drop leg holsters either they wobble around when you run and are difficult to draw while on the move. I find the most effective holster is on the hip of your dominant hand though this isn't always possible depending on your rig for that day. Unless you plan on going pistol primary 2-3 mags (incl. the one in your gun) should do you fine, you don't want to carry more than you need as they're much heavier than a midcap.

You can't really go wrong with a TM or a KWA/KSC. They're the best stock guns out there and definitely what I would recommend. WA upgraded can be very good pistols but are IMO far too expensive for what you may get over a TM. If you get a KWA/KSC make sure you get the System 7/NS2 version. IMO TM makes the best pistols out there because of their hop-up design. It has two prongs (points of contact) similar principle to the shredars concave nub for AEG's. While the KWA/KSC hop-up is just a single point of contact. The two points of contact lead to better range, accuracy and consistency. The one knock I would have against KWA/KSC is that their hop-up rubbers tend to absorb a lot of oil and swell up over time. Be prepared to have some spares to change your rubber every so often if you get a KWA/KSC. KWA's can also shoot a little hotter than 350 so be careful there.

KWA/KSC vs. TM

TM
+ Accurate to 150ft.
+ more aftermarket upgrades
- stock plastic slide and barrel
- not true 1:1 scale of real steel

KSC/KWA
+true 1:1 scale of real steel
+stock metal slide and barrel
-accurate to 100ft.
-hop-up rubber will absorb oil and swell

KJW can be a good value for your money "a workhorse" just leave it stock and don't count on amazing range and accuracy.

[MaciekA]

Wow, ask questions and you'll get answers. You guys are beyond awesome.

Thanks for the useful information. I've got a lot to think about and tons of reading to do.

[FreelancerInc]

i'll hafta disagree with latency on one thing, this is my first year airsofting and i had lots of money to spend so i have a complete load-out already. by which i mean aegs, bdus, vests, radios and of course my very first real airsoft pistol. i purchased a kwa m9 ptp because it felt good in my hands. and i have used it alot this year.

on our teams field we have a old barn which we use for some cqb play and it haas a fps limit so once i go into the barn my rifle shoots to hot. so i get to use it alot. we also play a game called pilot where someone goes out with just a pistol and hides a "black-box" in both of these instances i have gotten to use and get kills with my pistol.

as i am slowly learning pistols have there time in place when your rifle can't move fast enough or shoots to hot for a respective area. so depending on your game style will depend on how much you use your pistol.

in my first year of airsoft i've probably gotten 15-20 kills with it...and pistol kills are second only to mercy/knife kills to best reactions and how you feel when you get them

[MaciekA]

For the purposes of this research, I am really not worried about justifying how often I'll use it, since it's pretty difficult for you guys to predict what kind of player I'll decide to be when that option is sitting in my holster. I don't want to ask people to speculate.

I'm more interested in mapping out the technical and market territory at the moment.

[ThunderCactus]

I think his point was that ultimately, you buy a pistol because of it's function, not because it looks cool or badass. I know for a fact, you'll always need that pistol at some point, and no matter what the temperature is, or whether it's raining or not, and how many rounds are left in the mag, you need the pistol to work perfectly for every BB in that mag at any time.

[bug519]

What about an electric pistol? I'm pretty much in the same boat as the OP, im just considering staying away from gas all together. What's one more battery to charge?
I've heard pretty good things about TM AEPs. I'm thinking about buying the glock.
Anyone have thoughts/experience with these?

[ThunderCactus]

They're nothing more than okay until they break.
Just like AEG's they're prone to all the same problems, just on a much smaller scale, and the battery doesn't last very long at all.

IMO gas is the way to go for a pistol. They're generally more reliable than GBB rifles. And just like the GBBR, they are inherently more accurate and have longer range than stock AEG's/AEP's.
Plus they have blowback, which is just awesome.
Some pistols even work from 5 to 30 degrees without issues.

[L473ncy]

The only AEP I'll ever recommend anyone is the TM MP7 I had a chance to play with one for about 20 minutes and I like it, I wouldn't pay retail for it but if I could grab one for like $100 I'd be sold. Then again it's more of a compact machine pistol thing than a true AEP (eg. Glock, or Beretta in AEP format).

[ThunderCactus]

I used one for a few games, it's an SMG more than it is a pistol.
It gets pretty decent performance out of the box, but I ran into 3 big issues with them;
1) tiny batteries, 7.2v 600mah. We had trouble squeezing 4 regular mags out of a battery on a good day. Luckily there's a PEQ mod for that
2) micro mechbox, pain to work with, breaks easily, not nearly as reliable as marui's full size mechboxes
3) Poor accessibility. If you're using the PEQ mod for a larger battery, make sure it's a 7.2v! I've seen the trigger contacts burn out on an MP7 before, and it's abnormally difficult to access them. As I recall I think it involved opening the body.
Also, this make it a serious challenge to install a MOSFET switch as well.

Although upgrade parts are available, it's still pretty pricey to upgrade.
IMO I'd rather use the gas KWA MP7 or MP9, I've heard nothing but good things about both.