m27 IAR as a LMG

[mr_nuts31]

I'm sure you hear a similar debate about this before, but I have to ask this. I'm about to pick up a M27 IAR as my LMG option similar to a RPK. Now that I mention the RPK you know where this is going. Do you think the M27 IAR counts as a LMG for milsim games and others with similar rules.

[R.I.T.Z]

nope

[MonnoncMaxou]

It should because it's exactly what it was meant to replace. Although technically you'd have to carry 22 mags for realism.

[hot_shot under fire]

I don't believe so... Perhaps if you threw a box-mag on it it would POSSIBLY be considered as an LMG at skirmish games and small "Milsim" events. However I would not count on it being accepted into the LMG roll at any larger-scale Milsim like Nightfall, Athena, Rhino (When it was running) and so-on.

[Drake]

In milsim games, the main difference between support weapons and regular guns is the ammo capacity (assault rifles usually being restricted to lowcap or realcap mags and LMGs being allowed to use box mags).

The IAR is fed from regular 30 round mags: if your intention is to use a hicap and run it like it was some belt fed weapon, that's patently unrealistic and goes against the very spirit of milsim. However, if the game is running real cap for everyone and you were using 30 round mags, I could see you being allowed to carry extra mags for the IAR; you'd still be carrying less overall than other LMGs -- typically the Automatic Rifleman carries about twice as many mags as riflemen, but most real cap milsim games allow between 500-1000 rounds for LMGs. And it would really come down to the organizer.

It's important to keep in mind the IAR -- Infantry Automatic Rifle -- is just that: it's not intended as a bona fide support weapon but as a more maneuverable automatic rifle. Keep in mind that USMC doctrine had one M249 per fire team (the automatic rifleman position), that's 3 LMGs per rifle squad (or 9 per platoon), arguably overkill. So a number of them are being replaced with the lighter, more maneuverable M27.



Also, if you want to get really technical about realism and realism, the IAR has a more limited ability to lay down large volumes of suppressive fire due to it having a fixed barrel -- meaning the barrel can and will overheat, and unlike real support weapons there's no way to swap the barrel.

[ThunderCactus]

^ what he said
The RPK isn't an LMG, the LMG36 although just a prototype still wasn't an LMG, the IAR isn't an LMG, the M1918 BAR isn't an LMG

What do they all have in common?
They're all labelled "support weapons" in that they're all designed to deliver more rounds down range than a conventional rifle. That doesn't mean they're machineguns, it just means they can support more full auto fire than a conventional rifle.
Often times, a support weapon will just be a conventional rifle fitted with a heavier barrel, as is the case with the C7 LSW and LMG36

Why did I include the M1918 BAR?
Because it is to the M1 garand what the RPK is to the AK-47 and the STG44 was to the KAR98. A heavier rifle designed to put more rounds down range, not a purpose built machine gun.

What makes a gun a purpose built LMG?
-belt fed
-quick change barrel
-fires from open bolt

Also, the IAR is mag fed only, so realistically you'd have to carry around 22 lowcaps or something ridiculous. I don't see the idea flying simply because you have to carry so many damn mags with the real steel version.

[Short Round]

Although many do not consider it a LMG, I feel that at the end of the day it is up to the host of the game if you can you use it in that role or not, ie. a lot of games I go to people use RPKs in a support role.

I think that if you buy the correct conversation kit/parts and make it look exactly like the RS counterpart (NOT take an AK74 and put a drum mag on it or a G36C and put a Beta Mag on it) then your fine. My problem with the M27 IAR though is what ThunderCactus and Drake pointed out in their previous posts above. Realistically if you run it like they do in real life for airsoft, your not going to be very affective.

Now I would say that if they did make a Beta or Drum mag for the RS platform, then I'd consider it at least along the same lines as the RPK or MG36. However seeing how they don't make a drum or beta mag for the RS platform (at least to my knowledge) I'd say your basically using a glorified AR platform which I'd consider along the same lines as any other AR on the field.

I personally like the M27 IAR, but I wouldn't consider using it in a support role. However as stated at the beginning of my post, I would leave the final decision to the host, so you never know.

[ThunderCactus]

They're also going with the HK416 as opposed to the colt IAR which fires from an open bolt in full auto.
So really it would just be a close-to-stock HK416 with a C-mag, even though the RS rifle will likely still be magazine fed. I imagine the IAR will just have a heavier barrel and/or possibly be modified to shoot from an open bolt since that's a smart idea.

So far the LMG crowd has been controlled mostly by chance, but really there's nothing stopping people from just buying A&K 249s en masse, or alternatively HK416's with CMAGs en masse...

Thinking about it now we really have no control over that crap lol
We DID have an issue in manitoba where people just bought LMG's to abuse the ammo limits. We dealt with it the wrong way, but it worked in limiting the number of LMG's on the field.

I really have no idea how, other than set OP limits for LMG's, one would control the number of auto winding drum mags on the field IF it ever became an issue.

[mr_nuts31]

I'm amazed at this conversation. For once I'm seeing legitimate arguments for and against this idea. I kinda expected this topic to go full retard, but instead it became an intellectual debate. Bravo to all of you guys.

[R.I.T.Z]

You could ask the host their opinion, but get ready to see some weird looks when you do.
there would probably be some major stipulations on the amount of ammo and such that you can/should carry.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by mr_nuts31

I'm amazed at this conversation. For once I'm seeing legitimate arguments for and against this idea. I kinda expected this topic to go full retard, but instead it became an intellectual debate. Bravo to all of you guys.

Way to jinx it.

When this thread goes South, it's on you.

[lurkingknight]

you're right, I wouldn't call it an LMG.

I'd call it a support gun though... as it's replacing in limited numbers LMG/support gun roles where it's being deployed. Also in the wiki article regarding the IAR, I believe it mentioned the USMC are testing beta/box mags with the IARs that are currently in use.

In terms of it being used as a support gun in airsoft, I don't see why you wouldn't allow it as long as it's not a highcap. If you want to penalize the carrier, make him carry more mags in proportion to the riflemen.

If he wants to shoot it, filling mags takes the gunner (and squad) out of the equation until all his mags are filled if he's shooting that many.


Let's look at the wording specifically. If the game organizer says SUPPORT guns, the IAR should technically be allowed.

If the game says MACHINE guns, then no, the IAR does not qualify for obvious reasons.

Personally from the viewpoint of this non serving leyman, I feel the need of a belt fed gun to be almost, and I say ALMOST obsolete, because if you DO need that kind of volume of fire that you would melt barrels, then yes, there's no substitute. But a machine gun in the traditional sense was far more effective in the days when a rifleman had a carbine or semi auto only rifle, or when there weren't many mags carried by a soldier... but these days every rifle/carbine shoots full auto, and are capable of sustained suppressing fire, and are far more mobile than a big heavy duty machine gun even carrying a backpack and platecarrier stuffed with mags. You only need 1 guy to operate it and carry it, and everyone uses the same mags. If a serious government fighting force is putting them into play, then some serious thought and analysis of combat operations went into it and there must be some merit to using it in the role they've put it in.

I also look at it from this point of view... how heavy is a box mag with 100 rounds in it with all the links and ammunition? How heavy are 4 polymer mags and ammo? How long does it take to do a mag swap vs a box mag swap with a belt fed gun (not that it has much bearing in airsoft, but hey while we're nitpicking)...? You've all played the games, watched the videos, some of you have even done it in real life. It looks to me that a swap on something like an IAR will get rounds flying faster over time vs long bursts of shooting and then long gaps of reloading.

[ccyg8774]

Maybe... The game hosts can set up a new class, HBAR (Heavy-barrel automatic rifle), that has larger ammo limit (and brust-length limit, if there is one) than the regular assault rifles but smaller than the SAWs (not just M249s, SAWs in general), so those MG36/HK IAR/RPK/L86 LSW/AUG HBAR/QBB 97 can fit in there?

In areas and games with very few support weapons (HBAR and SAW), this may not be necessary, as having some support weapons in each side is good for more mil-sim, both HBARs and SAWs can be treated the same under a class of support weapon. But if there is a lot of HBAR users, or if people are trying to abuse the HBAR to by-pass the ammo limit, this may work.

[Danke]

How about players just stop searching for some magic bullet that gives them an advantage. Riot shields, UAVs, turning SMGs in to GPMGs, 100 metre sniper rifles.

If you want to run a particular weapon according to your taste feel free. Don't beg for special status just because you bought something new.

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by Danke

How about players just stop searching for some magic bullet that gives them an advantage. Riot shields, UAVs, turning SMGs in to GPMGs, 100 metre sniper rifles.

If you want to run a particular weapon according to your taste feel free. Don't beg for special status just because you bought something new.

+1
I would definitely allow ballistic shield to consider geunine protection if its actually a Level IV rated ballistic shield (would be a b**** to haul though)
Riot shields are....not ballistic rated, so a hit is still a hit.