Troubleshooting new build: Opinion requested!

[Flarebrass]

Hello ACS Community!,

I have a question for you guys! I have been getting better and better with AEG upgrades and mods, and I am always wanting to know more about them to enhance the performance of aeg's. I have my setup that i've built and I finished putting it together and she runs amazing except for one problem (currently, TONS of trouble shooting has taken place up to this point to make the gearbox run). I have near-perfectly shimmed the gearbox, short stroked 3 teeth, corrected AOE (both shaving teeth from piston & adding 70D sorbo pad), swiss cheesed the piston and so on.

Currently, the issue that I am having is that the nozzle stops in different places which is leading to the rifle not feeding at all. I am hypothesizing that this is either from pre-engagement (although unlikely as the short stroke and AOE corrections should eliminate it) or over-spin. Would you guys have experience with this? How would I adjust/fix this issue so that this does not happen any more?

Bellow is my complete gearbox setup for my VFC 416 CQB:

Lonex Gearbox (bearings, not bushings)
SHS M4 nozzle
Lonex aluminum double o-ring cylinder head (equipped with 70D sorbo pad)
Modify enhanced cylinder type-1
Siegetek Revolution 14.09:1 Gearset (short stroked 3 teeth off pick up side)
Lonex Titan A1 Motor
SHS 15 tooth piston - full metal rack (filed 2 teeth after pickup tooth for AOE correction, short stroked 3 teeth off release side and fully swiss cheesed)
Lonex POM Ventilated Piston head (Ball bearings installed)
Stock VFC bearings spring guide
Lonex cutoff lever
Lonex tappet & selector plates
Lonex M130SP non-linear spring
PiccoSSR 2 Mosfet (installed using setup #2 on installation guide with 16 gauge silver wiring)

I think thats about it for the gearbox, so please let me know if you need any other specs. My goal is ~395 fps. If you could please let me know your opinion on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

Flarebrass

[Flarebrass]

Reserved. **Also please note: the PiccoSSR 2 mosfet is a NON-Active Breaking mosfet**

[lurkingknight]

it is my understanding that you shortstroke off the release side of the sector gear, not the pickup. SSing off release side messes with tappet timing which affects load timing.

[K3vX]

First reaction: Dude, you short-stroked a Riot gearset

Second reaction: From the pick-up side D: (Edit: Pick-up side is the correct way.)
(Edit : Short-stroking from the RELEASE will mess the tappet timing, which can lead to a bad air leak.)

With 14.09, short-stroking is barely needed. Three teeth is excessive (I know, I did the same for my first build because I was fearing pre-engagement)

Third, nozzle stopping randomly does mean slight overspin, but should not affect anything. Your BBs should still feed, so I'd look elsewhere, especially when you say "not feeding AT ALL".

Which magazine/BBs are you using?

[Flarebrass]

Hey Lurk,

That is what I did! (your first sentence differs from your second, so I am going off what i read). When I did my short stroking research, the guides I used said to take teeth off the pickup side of the sector gear and teeth off the release side of the piston. This was to omit your exact reason of messing up the tappet plate timing. The guides that I used were as follows:

http://airsofttutorials.com/tutorial...-stroking.html

http://www.airsoftsociety.com/forums...uestion-87086/

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/lo...p/t278152.html

Are these guides incorrect in doing so? Should it be teeth removed from both the release side of the piston and the release side of the sector gear?

Thanks,

Flarebrass

[Flarebrass]

Hey K3vX,

I was quite fearing pre engagement as well. That is why I went with 3 teeth and upped the spring!

In regards to mags & bb's, It was an Emag PTS + .25 Bioval bb's.

What do you think it would be then for the feeding issue? Where are the guides that say to take it off the release end? Why would all the guides (accordingly incorrect) still be up on the main google list?
I listed the guides I used above; are they all wrong!?!

Thanks for your time,

Flarebrass

[lurkingknight]

sorry.. .3 hours of sleep. I meant short stroking off pickup side of the sector might mess with tappet timing.

To be honest, I can't remember at this point what the method is. I haven't done it myself and don't remember what the process was. 14:1s might require a sector clip though.

[Flarebrass]

Hey Lurking,

No problem. Maybe if I clarified a little better it would help. When I shoot in semi, wherever the nozzle was, is where it ends up. It only changes position (middle, forward, back, etc) after I shoot in full auto then swap back to semi again. The nozzle DOES stick out a bit in its fully recoiled stage, which is probably why the bb's aren't going up into the hop up. Is there a way to stabilize it so it doesnt keep changing stages after full auto (were excluding the AB mosfet at this point as I do not want to have to rewire it and purchase a new AB mosfet if its not required)? That is what I meant by a timing type issue.

Do you have any guides in regards to taking teeth off the release side of the sector gear (as I stated above all the guides I reviewed and learnt from are saying pickup side; if that's wrong, where are the guides for the correct way haha)?

Thanks again,

Flarebrass

[wind_comm]

wait, wait, wait. what? you shortstroked a set of riots?


...how long did that take?

[K3vX]

Edit: TL;DR : If short-stroking, do it from the pick-up side.

I'm retarded too, haha, let me explain in details.

Removing teeth both side can screw the tappet timing. Removing from the release side of the sector gear will release the piston before the tappet is fully extended. That sucks. Removing from the pick-up side could lead to the tappet being picked up and pulled back before the piston finished it's stroke (which would normally cause premature engagement if the teeth were still present). But that's less likely, so that's why we recommend removing from there.

So, the guides are right, but only to a point.

On both cases, you will lose power but will still shoot a BB.

Myself, I got confused by lurkingknight's post, and I'm really sorry for this. Nothing I hate more than giving false information.

About the nozzle not at the same place after full auto, that's perfectly normal.

In semi auto, the cutoff lever is activated by the sector gear revolution, so it stops at the same place every time. Since in full auto the cutoff is not engaged, the cycle will stop where you release the trigger. And since us human cannot release the trigger at the same place every time, the nozzle will stop at random. Like I said, not a problem

Does the gun feed with a weaker battery?

If yes, the nozzle, when at full speed, is too quick for the BB to get up and chambered in the hop-up chamber. A sector clip will help, as well as better mags ( don't know the EMAG, but if they're genuine PTS they should feel ) or better BB (* bioval should be okay, but try something else just to eliminate that variable ).

If not, I'd look at the nozzle itself. Maybe it's too long, so even when fully retracted it doesn't allow a BB to get in. Flip the rifle around, point a flashlight at the BB feed path, and shoot with a low powered battery so you can see the cycle. If you put a BB in there, it won't feed if the nozzle is too long.

[wind_comm]

some quick ASM google-fu says pickup side is correct.

[K3vX]

Originally Posted by wind_comm

wait, wait, wait. what? you shortstroked a set of riots?


...how long did that take?

I had the same reaction. People usually shortstroke a sector gear from another gearset (XYT/JG is really popular on ASM).

Originally Posted by wind_comm

some quick ASM google-fu says pickup side is correct.

Yes, read above, I brainfarted and corrected myself. At least now we're sure.

[lurkingknight]

where the nozzle ends up after semi or full auto cycle is irrelevant. The backstroke of the tappet is what allows the BB to enter the HU. Provided you have enough torque in the motor or amps in the battery to move it wherever it stops. (semi auto lock up)

The cycle will just start where it left off, it doesn't care where the nozzle ends up, the BB will still load if it can load.

AB fet will help more with overspin imo and you aren't describing overspin as an issue.

How is it chronoing? is it all over the place or is it a pretty good seal?

Using a lower power battery to slow it down will hide the possibility that the tappet stroke is happening too fast with the battery he wants to use. It may reveal that the nozzle is too long and won't allow it to enter the HU. Generally speaking some builds start needing a sector clip at 16:1s with neo motors and big 11v lipos. 30~rpsh in that area is where feeding without a sectorclip is dicey.

So you pulled the factory VFC nozzle out of the gun for an SHS aluminum nozzle? Did you happen to compare lengths of the new nozzle to old?

a KA nozzle vs an SHS nozzle is clearly shorter by about 2/10s of a mm. Unfortunately I don't have a stock vfc nozzle on my bench to give you the exact measurement, but I did measure KA vs SHS because I had a massive FPS swing with an SHS nozzle on a KA gun with KA HU. Went back to the factory nozzle and it's 395fps all the time. The SHS being too long here.

How quickly do the BBs spray out of the mag when you hit the release? Do they spring out with a lot of velocity or is it closer to pooing out?

When the mag is in the gun and you're pulling the trigger, does pushing the mag forward or up make a difference? how about back? Does rocking it around make a difference?

Have you tried other mags? Other BBs?

[pestobanana]

The air nozzle stopping in a different position each time is a result of varying degrees of overspin. That is not why you are having feeding issues. You also should not be worried about pre-engagement unless your gun is jamming, I'm using a 13:1 gearset with 2 teeth SS from the release side to prevent tappet plate pre-engagement with a delay clip, PicoSSR2, Tienly GT45000 motor and M90 spring. No signs of pre-engagement after 4000 rounds.

Try turning the gun upside down, and seeing if it feeds on semi auto upside down. If it doesn't feed, cycle the gun until it stops with the nozzle in the full rear position and see if it requires force to push the BB down into the chamber.

[Flarebrass]

@wind_comm: I used a cutting edge on a dremel. for all 3 it took me about 10-15 minutes.

@K3vX: Unfortunately I do not have a lower battery as I only have 11.1's and rifles. I do not believe it is moving to fast, as after more observations, firing semi 30 times in a row, the nozzle still moved irregularly (from being all the way back to sticking 3-4 mm into the hopup chamber, more so the latter than the former). Unfortunately with these gears, a sector clip is of no use, as the Siegetek sector gear has a build in over sized round "nub" which goes almost all the way to the gear shaft. The mags are PTS and feed very will in both my other rifles (as well as the bb's), so I think we can rule those out as well (keeping in mind PTS Emags are the mag of choice for 416's due to the modified magwell). Noticing, after those 30 shots, that for at least 5 of them the nozzle was all the way in the recoiled position towards the gearbox; which in theory means it isn't too long. There is something (whether it be overspin or what have you) that is catching it just a tiny bit forward each time and it finished anywhere from 0mm - 4mm in the HU. Frankly I am still stumped on how to adjust this w/o an AB mosfet.

@Lurking: Sometimes the nozzle goes all the way back (which shows it can), but more often than not, its a couple mm into the HU. I will pull it out some time this week and check the length of the VFC one compared to this one, but after seeing that it could go all the way back towards the gearbox has me thinking otherwise. The motor is a high torque and speed neo motor so it should have enough kick to do anything. Maybe it has too much kick for a lower ratio gear set (even after short stroking?). I haven't had a chance to chroni it as it hasnt even been able to fire a bb yet. For the Emag, they spray out super fast, so the spring seems ok. When the mag is in the well, there is no vertical or horizontal wiggle. I will try another mag tonight, but the nozzle seems to be (probably connected to a larger problem somewhere) blocking the feed itself. No idea how to truly fix this issue. The main question is, how to I make the nozzle stay recoiled ALL the time. That is, the magic question haha.

@pestobanana: Would overspin not create an issue with the nub on the sector gear to finish in different places, therefore leaving the nozzle in different places and creating a feeding issue? I will try turning it upside down and see if I can, by hand, put a single bb down in the hop up. I mentioned to another helpful hand above that more often than not the nozzle is a few mm into the magwell, preventing it from feeding, BUT I have seen it a few times go all the way back, which means its not too long, therefore must be another problem. I will cycle it as you said and get it in the rear position and see if a bb slides down inside. If it does, what does that mean? Do we go back to the overspin stopping at random different intervals, therefore putting the nozzle in different places and unable to feed?

Other than an AB mosfet, would using bushings rather than bearings make a difference? (I know it will slow the gears down slightly, but will it be enough? Is it that dramatic of a difference?).

Thanks again for all your brain power guys. It really helps to have more than one head on things and together, I am sure we can figure this out! Thanks a ton!

Cheers,

Flarebrass