Build help!

[AngryViper]

So I'm wanting to make an odd build for my custom G&P M4, it's a mix of high FPS, ROF, and Range.
The gun needs to shoot around 400Fps w/ .25s, the ROF needs to be around 35RPS or more, and the gearbox need to able to sustain the internals.
Will the stock G&P gearbox work or would a new reinforced gearbox be needed?
Here's what I have so far:
-Madbull PX 14 Full Steel Teeth Piston (Do I need to Swiss cheese it?)
-Stock G&P Cylinder, Cylinder Head, Piston Head, Tappet Plate,
-SHS Red Air Nozzle
-Modify Quantum Low-Gauge Wiring w/ PICOSSR Mosfet.
-Modify Hop-Up Chamber w/ Modify Flat Hop (Hard) attached to a Madbull Python M16 Length Inner Barrel.

What do I parts/things I need to do to make this build work?
I know I need a Dual Sector Gear(What brand is the best/ what other gears should I get to match the DSG)

[ThunderCactus]

Buy a polarstar, that build is not physically possible on an AEG.
You can't put a DSG on an M16 length barrel.

[Sequential]

I've done 400FPS 0.2G / 36 RPS with a Tienly 45000, stock wiring.
Here's a photo of the gun before the Tienly. This was with the stock wiring and stock gears with a 11.1V lipo and upgraded G&P motor.

[lurkingknight]

lol you're funny..

13:1 12:1 or 10:1 single sector
sorbo
tienly motor

you're going to hit into the 40 rps range.

120 spring and you'll be at 400ish with a .25.

Sorbo and swiss cheese the piston.

Going to need a pretty big battery, 11.1v 30C or better with 2400mah or better.


For a DSG you are looking at more than likely a bore up, 180 spring with the spring spacer but 35 rps is achievable with full stroke single sector gears.

14:1 DSG will probably net you in that area, but you're going to need an even bigger battery to drive the spring.

There's no point in doing this with a DSG, even if you used a short barrel. 363~ is where the volume will max out at... maybe a bit more, 407mm maybe with the bore up.

You obviously have no idea how DSG compression works, because a full cylinder isn't going to work, given that a DSG is a 9 tooth stroke vs a 15 tooth stroke.

[AngryViper]

At the moment I have a SHS High torque motor, is the $90+ motor ultimately needed? (If so, blue, orange, or red?)
Which brand makes the best gear sets for those ratios?
Wouldn't a silicon damper mod work better?
I'm stuck to buffer tube LiPos at the moment and I have a tenergy 11.1 20c 1200mah battery.

[L473ncy]

Holy crap, they're down to 10:1 gears now?

What ever happened to 18:1's guys? I was talking to ThunderCactus about this last year and I remember Kalnaren has the same gripe and posted last year too. At this point you might as well just be shooting a string of BB's or playing laser tag.

I think I'm probably one of the few people that has 18:1's (or did I get 16:1's TC?) in my rifle and I forget what it's shooting but probably around 750-900 RPM (13-15 RPS) which is around what the Real Steel M4 shoots at.

BTW: OP you might need to get a tappet plate delay chip. I know I was being sarcastic and saying things like "oh you're shooting more than 10 RPS?", you absolutely need a delay chip or the gun is going to blow up, set fire to your house, and kill your loved ones. But seriously, it might be necessary at this point.

As for gearsets, I'd probably say Lonex or SiegeTek if you want the best. You're probably fine with the motor you currently have.

[AngryViper]

Originally Posted by L473ncy

Holy crap, they're down to 10:1 gears now?

What ever happened to 18:1's guys? I was talking to ThunderCactus about this last year and I remember Kalnaren has the same gripe and posted last year too. At this point you might as well just be shooting a string of BB's or playing laser tag.

I think I'm probably one of the few people that has 18:1's (or did I get 16:1's TC?) in my rifle and I forget what it's shooting but probably around 750-900 RPM (13-15 RPS) which is around what the Real Steel M4 shoots at.

BTW: OP you might need to get a tappet plate delay chip. I know I was being sarcastic and saying things like "oh you're shooting more than 10 RPS?", you absolutely need a delay chip or the gun is going to blow up, set fire to your house, and kill your loved ones. But seriously, it might be necessary at this point.

As for gearsets, I'd probably say Lonex or SiegeTek if you want the best. You're probably fine with the motor you currently have.

I'm most likely going to get a SHS plastic delayer chip.

[lurkingknight]

shs motors are power hungry, unfortunately the battery you want to use is hugely underpowered for your goals. It won't help if you keep an inefficient motor. But the SHS should be powerful enough to get into the 30 rps area.

You're going to be damaging the packs by overdrawing them. Most of the 13:1/1.5J setups I've built for people hang around 20-22amps constant discharge. While your pack might be able to handle the constant, the startup amperage draw spikes rather high, probably closer to the 100amp ranges. This is where the burst rating of the battery pack becomes important. With insufficient burst amperage, this is going to damage a pack pretty quickly even with the setup performing at optimum efficiency. This is generally what leads to the cells breaking down internally causing swelling and possibly fire. Buffer tube lipos are fine for stock setups, what you're building is not stock, it would be a pretty high end build if it holds together and is done right.

In the best case scenario your gun will only shoot maybe 800-1000 rounds before needing a new battery because of the drain on it.

Anything approaching 30 rps, a delayer will help
anything over 30 rps and you will need a delayer to assist in feeding in full auto.

10:1 gears are siegeteks.

SHS makes a 12:1 as well as a 13:1.

[AngryViper]

Originally Posted by lurkingknight

shs motors are power hungry, unfortunately the battery you want to use is hugely underpowered for your goals. It won't help if you keep an inefficient motor. But the SHS should be powerful enough to get into the 30 rps area.

You're going to be damaging the packs by overdrawing them. Most of the 13:1/1.5J setups I've built for people hang around 20-22amps constant discharge. While your pack might be able to handle the constant, the startup amperage draw spikes rather high, probably closer to the 100amp ranges. This is where the burst rating of the battery pack becomes important. With insufficient burst amperage, this is going to damage a pack pretty quickly even with the setup performing at optimum efficiency. This is generally what leads to the cells breaking down internally causing swelling and possibly fire. Buffer tube lipos are fine for stock setups, what you're building is not stock, it would be a pretty high end build if it holds together and is done right.

In the best case scenario your gun will only shoot maybe 800-1000 rounds before needing a new battery because of the drain on it.

Anything approaching 30 rps, a delayer will help
anything over 30 rps and you will need a delayer to assist in feeding in full auto.

10:1 gears are siegeteks.

SHS makes a 12:1 as well as a 13:1.

Would chaining two lipos and putting them into a crane stock work? or would a full stock w/ a brick lipo.

[lurkingknight]

if you would double up 2 of those tubes with a parallel harness you'd effectively double the life and discharge of it, so yes, it would work better. Don't put them in series. The problem with that is the parallel harness will eat up some precious buffer tube space. It's a pain in the ass to get everything to sit well, especially if you add a mosfet into that mix... which you should, because it's going to be hard on trigger contacts.

I'd go with a full stock or brick in an external battery though, something in a mag pouch on the stock. not everyone likes this setup though.

For my mp5 I havea 7.4 30C 4200mah battery only driving a lonex A1 on 16:1s, but I know I don't have to change the battery in that gun during a game. The full stock gives you those kinds of advantages, but might not be so stylish on a shorter m4.

My g36 runs on a lonex A1 with 13:1s and the batteries I use are nanttech 11.1 20-35C 1600mah, bricks those are as big as I can fit in a g36C handguard, and a couple of them have gotten puffy. Not bloated, but puffy. So I figure I'm riding a threshold right there. Any mechanical jam, hiccup or failure that the triggermaster fet doesn't catch, it will probably damage the pack. There I don't have much of a choice. It's too bad I can't get packs that are that width and height, but longer length for more mah.

The ones that have gotten puffy I pull out of main service and use them on the test bench so I have quick access to them. For 12-13$ a pack, it's not worth fucking around with them and causing a fire, I just get new ones when I need them.

[AngryViper]

Thanks for all the tips guys, here's what I'm going to do w/ my build.
-SHS 13:1 Gears w/ SHS Delayer Chip
-Swiss Cheese my Madbull Piston and correct the AOE
-Silicon Damper Mod
-Modify SP120+ Spring
-SHS Motor connected to a Modify Low Resistance Wiring w/ PICOSSR Mosfet
-11.1 30c 2300+ mah Brick LiPo

Yay Or Nay?

[lurkingknight]

not sure the validity of claims on the silicone mod that sorbo isn't consistent. How much more consistent than +/-5 can you get? Sorbo has been used on dsg builds going up to that magical 90rps and there are no issues.

With a harder material comes more shock transferred to the front of the gearbox. Sorbothane was researched and chosen for it's shock absorption properties. it also takes all of 1 minute to install and does the job fine. I'm not sure why'd this messy alternative is any more appealing when you're talking the tiniest of gains for proportionally a lot more work.

Not to disregard his claims, as you could stick any pad in there that's good at retaining shape and absorbing the shock load from the piston, there's a few different types of material out there that do it, but for 5 bucks and a bit of CA glue and 1 minute, what's the point of spending 24+hours to get the silicone set properly for very little gain?

I've seen guns with airseal at +/-3fps and that's ridiculous. When it's down to that it's more than likely the variances of the BB not being perfectly spherical.

Go with an ASR fet, I'm not confident with a pico being able to handle these big builds. I've installed several ssr2 and a couple have melted down.

[AngryViper]

Originally Posted by lurkingknight

not sure the validity of claims on the silicone mod that sorbo isn't consistent. How much more consistent than +/-5 can you get? Sorbo has been used on dsg builds going up to that magical 90rps and there are no issues.

With a harder material comes more shock transferred to the front of the gearbox. Sorbothane was researched and chosen for it's shock absorption properties. it also takes all of 1 minute to install and does the job fine. I'm not sure why'd this messy alternative is any more appealing when you're talking the tiniest of gains for proportionally a lot more work.

Not to disregard his claims, as you could stick any pad in there that's good at retaining shape and absorbing the shock load from the piston, there's a few different types of material out there that do it, but for 5 bucks and a bit of CA glue and 1 minute, what's the point of spending 24+hours to get the silicone set properly for very little gain?

I've seen guns with airseal at +/-3fps and that's ridiculous. When it's down to that it's more than likely the variances of the BB not being perfectly spherical.

Go with an ASR fet, I'm not confident with a pico being able to handle these big builds. I've installed several ssr2 and a couple have melted down.

I'll be getting a Modify Torus gearbox w/ all modify internals, that covers the reinforcement aspect.

The whole Purpose of using silicone as a replacement for Sorbo, is to eliminate the reset time of the damping material. Sorbo, having characteristics of foam, has a period of time required for it to return to it's original form after being compressed. With a material like silicone, it simply rebounds to it's original shape, therefore having an instantaneous reset. The whole aim of the game is consistency, as this mod was pioneered in the airsoft sniping scene by a Swedish tech under the name of "Hammar." The silicone method also allows you to customize the shape of the mould in order to tune to specific factors, which you cannot do with sorbothane. Silicone is also more durable than Sorbothane pads, and as far as we have seen, this damper mod has not been worn out yet on correct applications! I urge you to read the original thread on ASF, here: http://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/43...bye-sorbo.html

[lurkingknight]

oh god. no.

if you're set on that, I bid you good day sir. lol.

if you have an account on airsoftmechanics, there is a thread on the silicone vs sorbo thing:

http://forums.airsoftmechanics.com/i...1223.msg132481

the among the fellows here making all the counter points are a plastics engineer and a guy that's a lot smarter than most smart people. lol. Not exactly sure of his academic background, but he's contributed greatly to the airsoft aftermarket world.

You can go ahead and try though.

*shrug* your money and your time, just trying to save some of it.

[pestobanana]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Buy a polarstar, that build is not physically possible on an AEG.
You can't put a DSG on an M16 length barrel.

Frank, as much as I respect your input in most cases, your statement here is simply not true.

I've built a 70 RPS capable gun that shot at 370 FPS. I also game guns that can do 50 RPS at 345 FPS, and 36 RPS at 425 FPS on little buffer tube batteries. You can easily do a lot more with a brick battery.

As for the OP

-You do NOT need a DSG. There is no benefit in building a DSG unless you're going for 50 RPS or more, and even then a SSG is more power efficient.

-PicoSSR is a piece of shit. You're going to be drawing 35-40A if not more on that setup, you'll need a 3034 based FET if you want it to be reliable.

-Do not use a hard flat hop. They cause jams and don't hop any better. Use a soft rubber with a hard nub.

-MadBull pistons are garbage. The plastic they use is not strong at all, and cannot take much before the rack is sheared out the back. Use a Lonex piston.

-Don't use a SHS nozzle, they are slightly off spec being half a mm too long. The stock G&P nozzle is great.

-The ONLY gear set that will be reliable in that kind of stress is Siegetek. I've NEVER seen them break in even the most stressful setups. I've run them up to 70 RPS. The ONLY time I've ever seen them break is from grossly incompetent user error.

-If you haven't gotten this already, pretty much none of the components you listed are going to work in the setup you are trying to run.

If you are using a brick 11.1, then your goal is easily achievable if built properly.

Your basic setup will need to be
-Siegetek 10:1 Gen2 gears, make sure its Gen 2 otherwise you may run into feeding issues.
-Lonex or Retro Arms piston, lightened
-Tienly 35K motor, 45K will give you close to 50 RPS but will be inefficient and cause extreme motor heat
-POM piston head of some sort, I use Lonex, Prometheus and Retro Arms.
-M120 spring. M120 with a perfect air seal should net you just over 450 FPS.