Hi-Capa 4.3 : Creation Outer Barrel Compatibility with PGC slide

[jaoquinz]

Hi guys,

Have been running the stock plastic barrel with a PGC Infinity slide for a while and thought it was time to upgrade to a metal barrel. So I picked up a Creation Outer Barrel for Marui Hi Capa 4.3, thinking that it would be a drop in fit.

Swapped the hopup unit into the new barrel and lubed up the barrel contact points with the slide, and racked it. Nice. Then I shot the first shot and it was good. Second shot and nothing happened. And then I realised that the slide was not returning to battery. About another 1/4 inch to go, with the recoil guide rod sticking out.

Upon further examination, I realised that the barrel was not going into the chamber lugs on the PGC slide after each shot. I racked the slie manually to see if that helps to mate the slide to the barrel, but all that did was chew into the chamber slot of the slide. Changed back to the plastic barrel and all worked perfectly again.

Anyone have experience with the Creation outer barrels for Hi Capa 4.3? THe plastic barrel works fine with the PGC slide. I've compared the chamber lugs on the outer barrel with the stock barrel, and they are not identical in offset and placement. Anything I can do with the barrel, or shoul I just save myself the trouble and get a nine ball chamber? Would that be a drop in fit with the PGC slides?

Thanks in advance!

[jaoquinz]

Anyone??

Anyways I went to get a SD outer chamber as I measured the chamber lugs on the Creation chamber and they were off by a couple of mm's to the stock one. Screwed on the Creation outer barrel on the SD chamber, installed the new uber-expensive chamber and still the same problem persists. However when I turned the slide upside down and racked it it returned to battery perfectly. Tried racking the slide while pushing the tip of the outer barrel up and it worked as well. So I'm thinking that its due to the new outer barrel being too heavy and pulling the entire chamber assembly down. This could also be caused by the fact that the outer barrel is no longer supported by the spring guide barrel that came with the PGC slide. The PGC slide polished spring guide barrel doesn't have a bushing-like support under the barrel like the stock Marui one. Will try the stock spring guide barrel later tonight to see if that solves the problem.

However, I'm just confused on why this setup doesn't work. I've seen plenty of pictures of guns with PGC sldies with the springe guide barrels that don't have the bushing-like support, with SD outer chambers, and they all report as working perfectly fine. But most I've see are with the 5.1. Not sure if that is the case with 4.3's. With the new PGC slide and springe guide barrel, the lighter stock plastic outer chamber and barrel works flawlessly. With a metal chamber and barrel, it gets stuck 1cm from battery when racked. Returns to battery when using the SD chamber, but only when upside down.

What am I doing wrong?? Please advise!

[jaoquinz]

Here's some pictures to describe the problem with my TM Hi-Capa 4.3.

This is the PGC Slide off the stock TM frame.


This is what happens when I rack the slide normally, irregardless of how hard or soft I let it return to battery.


This is the Creation chamber eating into my PGC slide. It sits lower than it should, wedging in between the slide and the BBU.


This is how the Creation chamber rest when the slide jams. Note the overtravel when it slams into the rear of the chamber breach.


This is the damage to the slide from the steel chamber.


More damage. Sigh...


Side view of the slide not returning to battery and chamber jamming, sitting lower than it should in the chamber breach ie. not returning fully and upwards into the slide lugs.


However, if I pull the outer barrel away from the muzzle when slowly returning the slide to battery, it works. Note the difference in chamber height in comparison to the picture above when it f***s up.


As advised, I chambered the slide lugs slightly on the muzzle side, mimicking the stock TM slide.


Smoothed the corners as well.


The small notch that was worn down on the base of my hop-up unit. I restored it with some nylon plastic and superglue and sanded it smooth and flat, thinking that this would help to push the chamber upwards at the end of the slide return and into the correct position in the slide lugs. Not really working. But at least eliminated one suspicion.


The outer chambers side by side. Top is stock TM plastic, middle is Creation, and bottom is SD.


Smoothed out the sharp corners of the lugs of both Creation and SD chambers. Nothing else sanded.


Comparison of the chamber leg that holds the hop-up unit in place. Note the flatter design of the SD chamber compared to the stock and Creation chamber. The SD chamber wobbles when installed with the PGC slide ie. has up-and-down play, as well as forwards and backwards play. Could this be due to the flatter SD chamber legs, or did I just file too much material away? Creation chamber doesn't wobble, neither does the stock.


Comparison of the chamber lugs width on the Creation(left) and SD(right) chamber.


TM stock with Creation.


TM stock with SD.


Stock TM spring guide barrel with the PGC spring guide barrel that came with the slide. Note the edge that helps support the outer barrel on the stock TM, I thought that was the problem, so I put the stock guide barrel on to test it. Didn't work before I filed the slide lugs, haven't tried it again after. Not sure if that effects anything as I've seen may hi-capa outer barrels the support.


Creation outer barrel. Muzzle hole was a little tight so sanded it evenly. Trying to mimick everything on the stock TM outer barrel as much as possible.


SD chamber with the Creation outer barrel on the PGC slide. Has more up and down as well as back and forwards play on the PGC slide. Might have shaved too much off? Didn't take much off the SD chamber lugs (not that easy to overdo it with steel).


More overtravel of the SD outer chamber in the chamber breach than the Creation outer chamber.


I love how it looks. But it doesn't work. OMG.


Hope that is more informative and can assist you gun gurus in deducing what the hell the problem is. Please HELP!

[ILLusion]

Here's the bad news:
The initial damage caused by the slide slamming in to the chamber has sheared off all of the lugs that is required for the slide to bring the chamber/barrel back in to battery. Your slide is now dead and your gun is no longer usable in its current state.

Here's the good news:
You get to try other brands of slides now, as you are forced to buy a new one. :P

Alternatively, this also gives you opportunities to try another setup:
A compensator mounted to the muzzle of the gun will create a third impact point for the slide to push the outer barrel forward, seeing as how the original ones are now destroyed.

[jaoquinz]

Hi Illusion,

Honoured to be graced by your presence.

I'm confused though, how is my slide lugs destroyed? I chamfered them intentionally based on advice on the threads where people have been saying how they should be. Before I chamfered and smoothed the slide lugs, it was sharp at the edges of the lugs and the slide sould jam in a similar manner (as was my initial dilemma when I started this thread over a week ago and there was no response so I resorted to reading other threads on similar problems ie. simonyha's AS slide being damaged by the steel outer chamber as well.)

I'm still confused on how the bloody chamber interacts with the slide and why the PGC slide I bought doesn't work with the outer chambers, as I bought these based on information on the hi-capa list of upgrade parts that I studied meticulously before I spent my hard earned money on lemons.

I'm no way wiser than before to how it works, as if it was destroyed in its current state it's because I took a file to the slide lugs myself in an attempt to fix the initial problem of jamming.

[m102404]

I think that he meant the vertical lug that is inside the slide, just behind (muzzle pointing away from you) the ejection port....not the traditional 1911 barrel lugs on top of the barrel.

I've chamfered the edges on the lugs on a barrel (just a touch to break the sharp corner) as well...and it worked for one pistol and didn't fix (didn't make it any worse) another.

All manufactures have their own specs. They also hold their parts to their own quality control. In an ideal world you'd be able to take one part and drop it into another...but such is not the case (at least in my experience) with a lot of different things in airsoft (GBBs just seem to be spectacularly bad sometimes).

My own "machining" with a hand file...can't be anywhere as precise as a factory that mass produces these things.

At any rate. Your slide is pooched. You could buy a new slide...but I'd be leary to try that chamber in it. Personally...if I had the opportunity and the option, I'd buy all the chamber, barrel and slide from the same manufacturer.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by jaoquinz

I'm confused though, how is my slide lugs destroyed? I chamfered them intentionally based on advice on the threads where people have been saying how they should be. Before I chamfered and smoothed the slide lugs, it was sharp at the edges of the lugs and the slide sould jam in a similar manner (as was my initial dilemma when I started this thread over a week ago and there was no response so I resorted to reading other threads on similar problems ie. simonyha's AS slide being damaged by the steel outer chamber as well.)

I'm still confused on how the bloody chamber interacts with the slide and why the PGC slide I bought doesn't work with the outer chambers, as I bought these based on information on the hi-capa list of upgrade parts that I studied meticulously before I spent my hard earned money on lemons.

I'm no way wiser than before to how it works, as if it was destroyed in its current state it's because I took a file to the slide lugs myself in an attempt to fix the initial problem of jamming.

As you can see, there are more than just the lugs you've worked on. Even that picture only indicates 4 lugs total. There are some slide manufacturers now that actually use 5 lugs, with the 5th one behind the arrow for Lug 3A, against the side wall of the slide.

Although you may have worked on Lugs 1 and 2, your image shows lug 3B as being destroyed. As far as lugs 1 and 2 are concerned, they have very little to no part in the forward part of the blowback/rechambering process, which is why chamfering lugs 1 and 2 yielded no change.
As far as I can tell from your photos, lug 3B has completely snapped off and that area is now flat. It even looks like damage is beginning to occur to your blowback chamber, because there is no longer any slide material to block the chamber from striking the legs of the blowback unit.
Without lug 3B, you will have a hard time getting your slide to push your chamber forward to bring it back up in to battery. As a result, the chamber is getting stuck under lug 3A, assuming 3A hasn't already been destroyed as well (can't tell from your photos).

Your PGC slide looks like it was never designed to take the 5th impact point, so as a result, there are no lugs left to push the outer barrel forward to initiate a proper rechambering action. This type of damage isn't something that is easily fixed. Because of the type of impact involved, it is very difficult to just add material in place. The only solution is to find another method to pull the outer barrel forward. As I mentioned, a compensator attached to the outer barrel is one such method to allow the slide to pull the outer barrel forward (rather than push it from behind.)

[jaoquinz]

That sucks big time. Real big time. Especially after buying two outer chambers when the plastic one worked perfectly. And now the slide is screwed up because of it.

How should I set up the compensator if I wanted to save the slide?

Is there a diagram to show how a hi-capa outer chamber and the slide interacts with each other? So I can understand how this f**ked up.

[RacingManiac]

Its a common problem with certain slides and steel chamber. My Hi-Capa came with a PGC and it destroyed itself on a Guarder barrel. Then I bought a SD slide which has an extra lug on the opposite side of the lug 3B. Works fine with SD chamber+barrel combo. The Airsoft Surgeon slide that I am currently running has the same problem as the PGC(as ILLusion can attest as well), but with my Hybrid mod it effectively introduce a new point of contact to the slide and the outer barrel. The BEST slide I've seen to deal with this stock, is the Nova slide on my 1911. On the same area as the SD lug, is a very sturdy section thats designed to contact the chamber on the straight edge on the backside of the chamber. Which is basically what ILLusion's new custom slides are designed to do.

[jaoquinz]

Sigh... I wish I knew all this before I went out and bought those chambers if that they don't work in the first place. They should post out these things so we don't destroy out slides and don't know what's happening until its too late.

[KEVORKIAN]

I'm looking at assembling this slide/frame combo:
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=25095

From what I see from Illusions lug diagram, my Airsoft Surgeon slide has them all, or am I seeing things?
My AS frame is No# 09

What should I do before I render the slide useless!

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by jaoquinz

How should I set up the compensator if I wanted to save the slide?

As far as I know, the Creation outer barrel is threaded inside the muzzle... however, I don't know which threaded adapters that may fit. I know the Tanio Koba One Touch silencer joint for sure doesn't fit.

But if you can find one, then you may have an option to attach a compensator at that point. The slide would then just bang against the back of the compensator to pull the outer barrel forward. Make sense?

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by KEVORKIAN

I'm looking at assembling this slide/frame combo:
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=25095

From what I see from Illusions lug diagram, my Airsoft Surgeon slide has them all, or am I seeing things?
My AS frame is No# 09

What should I do before I render the slide useless!

I have that same set and smashed that exact same slide to the point of uselessness. I have frame # CL 05.
I blamed myself for using a Tanio Koba one piece outer barrel with it - I figured it must have been the cause of the damage.

Dismayed but not totally given up, I contacted the manufacturer of the kit and acquired a replacement slide as well as their OWN in house polished 304 stainless steel one-piece outer barrel/chamber. That barrel showed up and it was like opening my very own engagement ring. That thing was so shiny and bright... it HAD to work. So I reassembled it all back together, ran through some firing tests, worked out a couple of kicks and bugs, and then... NOOOO! I see a piece of black metal pop up in to the air after a shot. I take a look and see that the slide was now over riding the chamber again.

yarrrrrr. anger ensued. Yet another $200 down the drain. Two dead slides worth $230 each, less than 3 mags through each of them.

This put me on a bit of a path and I went through days of drawing diagrams and discussing this issue with the manufacturer to figure out why this was happening. Speaking to RacingManiac, he said his had the exact same problem as my two slides - so it wasn't just my setup.

Strangely enough, I can't even say all their slides are bad. I've installed them before using Shooters design chamber/barrel sets and all worked fine, even after an extended period of use. So maybe only Shooters Design slides are bad?

Anyways, I didn't really want to dump another $230 to get a 3rd slide, so I shipped the two slides back to the manufacturer, told them to turn them in to hybrid slides and to make me a gold plated sight tracker outer barrel to fit it and send it all back to me and I'd be done with it.

So ultimately, there are two good things that came out of this:

1) We came up with a new slide design with the additional 5th lug. Slightly different design from what's currently available on the market, but it should prove to be effective at preventing this from happening again.

2) Now I'll end up with a pistol way more blinged out than I'd originally hoped, with a spare slide in case some other obscene damage occurs that I couldn't foresee...

[jaoquinz]

Thanks guys. So lets see.. the only comp set that would look decent on my gun would be the PDI JB comp set for the 4.3. $160.. hmm.. What other options do I have?

So with this setup, I would be able to reuse my slide, the chamber, and an extended inner barrel? And it would cycle as reliable as stock again as it did before with the plastic chamber.. Is this an accurate deduction?

I also thinking that I might be able to save the slide's damage a little bit, since I examine the lugs 3A and 3B, and they are not totally gone. 3A is shaved, while 3B has been etched in but there is still some material there. What if I put some epoxy there, or better yet put up some nylon plastic and superglue it to fill in the damage, and sand it smooth. Might not be a total fix, but at least any additional damage would be done to nylon plastic which I can easily replace. Would that be able to help?

Also, I haven't figured this thing out. How come the stock chamber works while the steel one doesn't? Is it a weight issue?

Assuming that I haven't had damage to lugs 3A and 3B, have what I had done to the slide lugs 1 and 2 and to the chamber lugs been helpful at all, or did I not need to do all that work at all?

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by jaoquinz

Thanks guys. So lets see.. the only comp set that would look decent on my gun would be the PDI JB comp set for the 4.3. $160.. hmm.. What other options do I have?

That kit is not mounted to the outer barrel - it's mounted to the inner barrel (unless PDI has a 4.3 barrel mount now... last time I checked, they didn't).

If it's attached to your inner barrel, that does you no good, as the inner barrel being pulled forward does not equal the outer barrel being pulled forward.

Unfortunately, for the 4.3, there are very little options as far as adding a compensator...

The only other option I can think of is creating a sleeve at the end of your outer barrel, so that when the slide rams forward, it will strike that bushing to pull the outer barrel forward. The problem is finding a material that can hold up to the impact forces as well as finding a way to secure it to the barrel.

Originally Posted by jaoquinz

I also thinking that I might be able to save the slide's damage a little bit, since I examine the lugs 3A and 3B, and they are not totally gone. 3A is shaved, while 3B has been etched in but there is still some material there. What if I put some epoxy there, or better yet put up some nylon plastic and superglue it to fill in the damage, and sand it smooth. Might not be a total fix, but at least any additional damage would be done to nylon plastic which I can easily replace. Would that be able to help?

If you don't mind the trouble of always going back to fix the damage, sure...

Originally Posted by jaoquinz

Also, I haven't figured this thing out. How come the stock chamber works while the steel one doesn't? Is it a weight issue?

That... I can't fully answer. It could be a weight issue, it could also be the fact that steel is much stronger than aluminum. It's less brittle and can be harder. Put steel up against aluminum, and aluminum will almost always lose, unless you use some super soft untreated steel versus a treated and hardened aluminum (which isn't the case with airsoft materials.)

Originally Posted by jaoquinz

Assuming that I haven't had damage to lugs 3A and 3B, have what I had done to the slide lugs 1 and 2 and to the chamber lugs been helpful at all, or did I not need to do all that work at all?

Hard to say. It might have done some good. It might not do anything at all. Hard to say.