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December 26th, 2009, 03:40
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Magna (WA) M4 GBBR Basic Information and FAQ
This is going to cover mainly on the WA M4 System, I will add some fix and problems later. If a mod could sticky it, it would be great, feel free to post comments and additional info.
What GBBR Systems are available? As of right now in the year 2009, there are couple of systems available these are: • Escort external-air: The predecessor of AEG in airsoft, it has come back with Escort manufacturing External-Air GBBRs. • Tanio-Koba: Design revealed long before Magna but release a year after WE. This system has the least amount of third party support. • Magna: Most of the manufacture and third party run on this system • WE’s Escort Modified gas-in-mag: A rival of the Magna system which has GBBR other than M4s For the purpose of this Info & FAQ we will be discussing Magna System aka WA System. Which system should I go with? There are many factors to consider for the sake of simplicity, here are the answers: • Low Cost both the GBBR and Magazines: KJW M4A1 GBBR (Tanio-Koba C8A2) • Lowest amount of Cool down effect: Classic Airsoft –Daytona, Shoei, Escort • Maximum realism (to the point a person can’t tell if its airsoft unless they open the chamber): Manga System aka WA M4 System • More variation in airsoft guns: WE WETTI Modified Escort GBBR system (M4, SCAR, T91, hk416 so far) What brands are available and how’s their reputation in the Magna GBBR world? 1. AGM: being known as the cheapest metal receiver Magna GBBR, its first batch was infamous for horrible reliability to the point everything except the receiver, buffer tube, and inner barrel needed to be replaced. 2. JG, Jing-Gong: The second china clones of M4 GBBR manufacture who make plastic receiver instead of metal. However, JG’s internal quality surpasses the WA and is considered as game-able. 3. G&P, WOC: The only official and legal manufacture of the Magna system other than WA itself, G&P’s WOC is considered as skirmishable out of the box. In addition, WOC has over 20 variations on the M4 –all of which has Aluminum die-cast receiver. 4. WA, Western Arms: The original and creator of the Magna GBBR, it’s quality is controlled by the Japanese law as such most of the parts needed to be replaced much like AGM except it has plastic receiver instead of metal. 5. Inokatsu: The only manufacture whose receiver are forged made (instead of die cast or cnc) like the AR-15/ real steel. Inokatsu’s receiver is different spec than the rest of the Magna system like its bolt carrier. It is infamous for being the most expensive as well as problematic, so far the 2009 Super Version has fix all of the problems encountered in 2008 and 2009. 6. Prime/ Bomber Custom: Another high end manufacture of Manga M4 GBBR who makes receiver from CNC high grade aluminum. It is the first manufacture to produce a receiver that does not wobble. Like Inokatsu, the receiver is slightly off spec and does not interchange with WA spec receiver. The bolt carrier requires the use of an Adapter to work properly unless it’s specifically design to fit prime spec. 7. King Arms: Newly enter the GBBR world, based on the quality of the receiver, it is on-par with G&P. 8. VFC: Made their modified version of GBBR based on Magna system. The magazine will not interchange unless one removes the valve lock on the magazine. Currently their quality is slightly lower than G&P as the material are all aluminum alloy instead of steel internal like G&P Should I get a factory assembled one or build one from scratch? There are pros and cons for both choices, in general, if you are new to the GBBR or gas system in the first place it is better to get an assembled one. However, if you are planning to get many aftermarket parts, build an AR-15 before or would like to have a challenge building a Magna GBBR from scratch may be a good choice. I would personally recommend that if your budget for the GBBR is less than $1200 stay with assembled ones. Cost versus Reliability First of all if you are planning to dive into any GBBR system you should be aware that it is not cheap in the first place, expect to spend $600+ to get one working. In addition, despite the numerous manufactures of parts, it is highly recommended that one stay with Prime, Inokatsu, or G&P for the moving parts as that’s the parts will most likely break. For assembled GBBR I would consider G&P WOC to be the one which struck the perfect balance between Cost and Reliability. These are the parts I would highly recommend to stay with a high quality manufacture: • Bolt Carrier: Airsoft Surgeon, 5KU, Inokatsu, JDT, Prime, RA-Tech. Avoid die cast like AGM or G&P • Firing Sear: G&P, Prime, RA-Tech • Nozzle: Aluminum nozzle is recommended if you use higher tension spring(Inokatsu, JDT, RA-Tech) • Aftermarket parts & AR-15 (real steel) parts for Magna System What brand of magazine should I choose for my Magna GBBR? The type of magazine I will recommend will be purely depended upon your budget. The best magazine for the cool down effect, stability, capacity and weight is the Western Arms. No manufacture has come even close to beating it. The downside is simply the cost, at $100 for the cheapest option –without bolt lock it is really too expensive. What I have here is a list of manufacture and a brief note on them. Keep in mind I haven’t handle every single one of them, some of em are from secondary sources. • 5KU/ EAC: Being lighter than AGM at approx 550g-600g and 1/3 of the WA standard magazine it has approx 50% of chance out of box which can hold propane. Besides G&P O-ring kit this mag has issue of leaking from fill valve. (~$40CDN) • AGM/ AGM ‘light weight’: Considered as the cheapest mag available. This mag is extremely heavy even with the “light weight” edition, has a very high chance of leakage from various location including fill valve. This brand of magazine is being well documented having wide distribution of fps range: 200 first shot, 450 second shot, 400 third shot. (~$20-25CDN) • Bomber: Having half the cost of the WA, and without the tight fitting of GHK magazine this mag is considered as the 2nd best choice for cost vs. reliability. The main problem in this mag is much the same as 5KU where fill valve is likely to leak & G&P O-ring kit is recommended. ($60CDN) • GHK: Considered as the best choice in the cost vs. reliability. This magazine is a proprietary design by GHK themselves. It can hold propane easily, the only problems are tight fitting against WA Spec Receiver (Prime, Inokatsu will drop free) and it has a slight tendency to keep the valve at the open position. These problems can be fix by sanding/ filing of magwell and lubing the valve. It has to be noted GHK magazine uses a shell which means that one could modify an AR-15 magazine so that GHK inner will fit in. A well documented conversion was done using P-Mags in GunGas forums by Doc (~$55CDN) • G&P: Not much information is known about this magazine since it was release recently, based on the mag received from the WOC (black colour shell and grey lips) It is the exact same as a WA Standard Magazine, where it would need the G&P O-Ring kit as well but it has a slightly bigger fps deviations. This brand could potentially become the best choice, but time will tell. ($50CDN) • Inokatsu: This manufacture DOES NOT MAKE MAGAZINES; all of the current rumours of the new Taiwanese mag are KUI. • JG: This brand is considered as the best Chinese magazine, it has the same weight as 5KU type but it does not leak at all. • KUI: Another proprietary magazine (springs, lips, O-Ring kit won’t work.) Unlike GHK, this magazine can hold approx. same volume of gas as WA type. It utilizes a magazine shell, which means AR-15 mag conversion is possible, but a lot easier due to the slimmer top. It has been known that this mag leaks but fixable unlike 5KU, and Bomber Magazines($~55CDN) • WA Standard: The benchmark for magazine, so far no other brand has the fps consistency like WA has offered. The entire WA mag requires G&P O-ring kit to hold propane, and it will not have leaking problem after proper installation and regular maintenance. ($120CDN) • WA S-Type (Cheap): Same quality as the Standard, except does not have the bolt lock function, typically found in black ($80CDN) • WA R-Type (Heavy Duty): Same quality as the Standard except it has less fps deviation and cool down than the standard. It is the most expensive one. (~$140) • Pro-Win: Formerly a vapourware, it is considered the best magazine for the WA system having the ability to load magazine into the gbbr without cocking the hammer. The mag can also take Mapgul Ranger Plate which is highly recommended as this can reduce the scar and the impact of dropping the mags to the ground even though it can take a beating. Pro-Win Mag is known for having some magwell problems. There's two: Magazine Catch and Magwell itself. Magazine Catch problem has reported in AGM, JG receivers, the only way to fix it is carefully sanding the magazine catch so it will 'catch' the mag. As for the Magwell, Inokatsu '09/'10 has tight fitting which can be fix easily with the removal of the Pro-Win Tag at the top of fill valve. (~$73) I want to build a Magna GBBR from scratch what parts do I need? To save you folks the trouble here’s the list of items you need, I’m certain you will not miss anything as this was the same list I had when I build my GBBR. Don’t ask me to give you the product code because there’s too many variation and it can be found amongst the search “wa m4” or “western arms m4” • Front Set (Outer Barrel, Flash hider, gas block/ front sight, hand guard, hand guard ring cap, delta ring) • Barrel Extension • Hop up Unit & Inner Barrel • Hop up buckling (apparently its sold separately) • Receiver Kit • A Mil-Spec/ airsoft butt stock • Pistol grip (Specifically for M4 Gas or AR-15 type) • Rear sight maybe? • A Receiver Set (Dust cover set, pistol grip screw, selector block -make sure you will get selector block as it's extremely difficult to find as a partand it's non-existing part for AR-15) And for people absolutely want to buy it in parts the Lower Receiver kit includes: Problems with installing/ disassembling a GBBR (Complete AR-15) YouTube- WA Lower Receiver Build 1/4 YouTube- WA Upper Receiver Build 1/2 Conclusion: This is just a post to save me the hassle of answering all the pms I received, I don’t mind answering them but I think it would help more people if information is readily available like FAQ. This is a first draft; I will do some editing and additional information when it becomes available. I do consider myself fit to do this review and FAQ with my understanding and research on this Magna system, for those who don’t know… I currently/ previously own a G&P WOC, and Prime GBBR. I have built a GBBR from scratch, and fully disassemble one apart then put it back together. I have used AGM, G&P, GHK, and WA standard mag as well as G&P, RA-Tech, and 5KU Bolt Carrier personally. I am against the whole Chinese clone thing, and I admit I have a personal vendetta against the PRC government; I’m born in Taiwan so I support Taiwanese industry. I had handle AR-15 both 14.5” and 16”, 9mm, and .223, semi-auto as well as “machine gun.” Oh and I have horrible English grammar due to me staying up so late and English retarded myself. X.x Got a C in English 1XX course.
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Last edited by kullwarrior; July 9th, 2010 at 16:20.. |
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January 12th, 2010, 20:05
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#2 |
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Quite a couple of people ask me on the specific cost of the Magna GBBR so here goes. These are estimates and base on historical prices sold at.
Complete GBBR: (NEW, in Canada) Western Arms ~$800-1000, its lower now adays with other manufacture outperform WA G&P $1200-$1400, depending on the model it could be more or less. A barebone one with carrying handle will cost closer to a $1200 range while a fully ready to go SR-16 will cost closer to $1400 AGM $450-$550, once again plastic hanguard is closer to $450, where as the RAS one will be closer to $550 JG: $275-$350 Inokatsu: $1800-$1950, '08 model will be closer to $1800 whereas '09 is more expensive. Bomber: $1500-$1800, AFAIK there isn't any bomber custom model in Canada KS: $350, according to Huang if it goes forward. Recievers, Metal Body Kit (MBK): G&P: $350-$450, $350 Inokatsu: $500-600 Prime: $1100-$1400, I guess its just me with my lucky charm, but people these days seem to tell me that they pay for higher amount than what I did. (The price on the left is alot higher than what I did) G&P Clear Lower Receiver + Upper by abandoning a metal lower: $220 (Make sure you tell the rep that you are ABANDONING JUST THE LOWER METAL RECEIVER of the G&P WA M4 Metal body kit. Cheapest kit is $154, choose either G&P VLT or G&P Fire pig aka regular upper) G&P Clear Lower + Upper: $140 (This one you have to ask the retailer if they will sell just the upper, Boom Arms and EBairsoft has done it. The trade off is that, often you will be talking to a wall) Building from Scratch Codes: These are made at the request of the user, I'm 99% sure these are all the parts needed. Beware that some parts have more than one option which are not provided. (Examples are: Selector, Magazine Release, Pistol Grip) Setup: FN M16A4 Parts from: Mostly G&P Parts Grade: Medium-High Barrel Length: Full Rifle Length (20") Selector: Safe-Semi-Burst Source: Redwolf Airsoft (barcode from G&P (WP, GP) are highly like the same for Boom Arms, Den Trinity, UNCompany, Airsoft Global, and RA-Tech Basic: CODE ----(From a non-redwolf source) Item in question XXXXX ----(ASC Classified) G&P M16A4 Metal Body Kit RAG-WA-Stock-002 ----(RA-Tech) Buffer Spring RAG-WA-Bolt015 ----(RA-Tech) Firing Block WP35 ----Pistol Grip WP93D ----Inner Barrel WP96 ----Hopup Buckling WP76 ---- Forward Assist WP65 ---- Magazine Release WP136 ----Trigger, Trigger Spring, Hammer, Sear, Auto Sear RAG-WA-TS-006 ----Hammer Spring WP69 ----Selector WP98 ----Buffer Lock WP53B ----Buttstock WP102 ----Charging Handle ***Bolt Catch (CHOOSE ONE) RAG-INO-01 ----RA-Tech, wears it self out faster $15USD WP51 ----RA-Tech, wears bolt carrier instead of the bolt catch itself $38USD ***Buffer (CHOOSE ONE) SHOOTER-BUFR-02 ----(Boom Arms) Shooter Buffer 18USD RRA-AR0107B ----(Questar) AR-15 Buffer, PAL license required to order -company policy 19CDN ***Hanguard (CHOOSE ONE) WP43 ----M5 RAS $216USD WP39 ----Standard Plastic $124USD ***Bolt Carrier Group*** WP113 ----G&P Die-Cast $77USD RAG-WA-Bolt-015 ----(RA-Tech) NPAS CNC Steel $275USD Setup: Colt M4A1 Carbine Parts from: Mostly G&P Parts Grade: Medium-High Barrel Length: Carbine Length (14.5") Selector: Safe-Semi-Auto Source: Redwolf Airsoft Basic: CODE ----(From a non-redwolf source) Item in question XXXXX ----(ASC Classified) G&P M4A1 Metal Body Kit WP35 ----Pistol Grip WP93C ----Inner Barrel WP96 ----Hopup Buckling WP76 ---- Forward Assist WP65 ---- Magazine Release WAM4-014 ----Lower Receiver Kit WP98 ----Buffer Lock WP102 ----Charging Handle ***Hanguard (CHOOSE ONE) WP15 ----RAS $216USD WP13 ----Standard Plastic $124USD ***Bolt Carrier Group*** WP113 ----G&P Die-Cast $77USD RAG-WA-Bolt-015 ----(RA-Tech) NPAS CNC Steel $275USD
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Last edited by kullwarrior; January 19th, 2010 at 13:41.. |
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January 14th, 2010, 11:02
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#3 |
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Tys
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Sorry...I'm new to the WA system...
With either of your parts build...do you still need to start with a base gun (i.e. WA or AGM or etc...) and then add those parts? I'm thinking about bits like the hopup unit itself or the outer barrel, etc...that you didn't list. Thanks, great write up!!! Tys |
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January 14th, 2010, 17:44
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For hop-up you can get a complete G&P kit(inner barrel, hop rubber, hop chamber, and barrel extension) in something like part WP93a/b/c/d(a, b, c, d are different length inner barrel). Alternatively you can buy Prime barrel extension by itself, and I think one of the Chinese clone(5KU or Element) makes barrel extension as well, and pair that with a different hop-up chamber from Prime or the copy of the Prime design, which allows it to be adjusted from the back instead of under neath the barrel(a problem with a lot of modern RAS that does not split.). RA-T also sells complete hop-up+inner barrel set, but you still need barrel extension.
AFAIK only King Arms and AGM uses bodies that have built-in barrel extension piece in the receiver, in which case you just need hop-up+inner barrel assy. Outer barrel are plentiful to choose from, but some needs work to work. Some receiver/barrel nut combo uses a thicker flange(not sure which one), which Dytac's barrel are designed for, in which case you might need to turn that flange down to use those in some other receiver combo(ie, G&P). One thing that's also needed to be mentioned is the barrel nut. I think Prime/Ino uses real steel spec nut, threaded as such. So Airsoft RAS nut will not work. Some uses AEG nut and RS one will not work unless you have the receiver re-threaded. About the G&P magazine. WOC used to come with WA mags, with G&P O-ring kit installed. These mags can be identified with the dark color filled valve, and dark color upper top magazine plate/feedlip assembly. This is as confirmed through the shop owner at KIC in Taipei. But sometime ago they are switched. Although the mag appears the same(Darker color shell compare to Bomber, more black than grey), the fill valve are now brass colored, and top plate is grey color like Bomber. These are supposed to be rebadged Bomber mag. Personally with my setup the Bomber never worked as well as the original WOC mags, they have noticeably weaker blowback compare to WOC(old) or WA Super/Heavy Duty mag. AND they leak....So unless someone tells me otherwise I'd treat the new G&P mag as the same as Bomber.... |
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January 14th, 2010, 20:54
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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January 14th, 2010, 21:38
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I am actually not sure if AEG all uses the same barrel nut, or if RS nut is the same as WA. Did your WOC barrel nut works on your new Prime?
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January 16th, 2010, 18:08
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#7 | |
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Quote:
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January 17th, 2010, 22:56
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January 19th, 2010, 13:41
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#9 | |
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-> New info added inregards to G&P Clear Lower Receiver
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February 26th, 2010, 02:39
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WA shooting at low velocities
Hi, I'm new to this forum but please help me out!
I recently got a WA m4 cqb-r and it is having problems with the velocity, where it shoots incredibly low. I don't have a chrono so I don't know for sure, but it cant be more than 150 fps with hfc134a gas and a bit higher with red gas... This is my first gbbr so it would be great if i could get some suggestions on how to fix the problem rather than diving right in. Having used gbb pistols and aegs for some time, I thought it was just a hop-up problem but it seems to be in good shape. The mags don't leak either. I don't know if this is the right place to post repair questions...but i guess my issue could go under FAQs. I love disassembling/reassembling stuff so please post any suggestions!!! Thanks for any help~~~ |
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February 26th, 2010, 13:36
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#11 | |
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Quote:
please fill your profile first read all FAQ first including those in FAQ sections I know the problems, I'll post it later when I get home and when you do your end deal?
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February 26th, 2010, 17:55
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Yup you got it. Sorry for the newbie mistake.
~~~~~Thanks again for any solutions~~~~~ |
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February 26th, 2010, 21:56
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K thanks for putting it in,
There are several factors contributing low fps Let me go through all of them and how they look, if you still cant figure out I got a clear lower WOC which can help 1) Hopup buckling torn 2) Nozzle Unit Damage (exterior) look for any damage, if it has chip part replace it, unless its steel/ aluminium 3)Valve Knock positioning via mag catch, take off upper, cock hammer put on safe, insert magazine see if the knock lines up to the valve release. Then hold firming on the hammer, release it via trigger pull. Don't let it go see if it still line up. NOTE: I would strongly recommand that the mag is empty of gas, and you are wearing goggle. Its not fun when Gas goes into your face/ eyes. If it does, get to the bathroom, rinse it with cold/cool water for 10min with eye lid open. If its still bad 10min after wash, go see your doc or medi center. 4) Hammer Spring V1: Check if the hammer spring's feet (two ends of the wire) are place directly on top of the trigger pin. If it isnt remove the hammer and adjust it. Doing so can change the fps by alot (510mm 6.08 inner gives fps 290 with the feet at the bottom of receiver, and 450 when its position (right) on the trigger pin. 4 Hammer Spring V2: Remove the hammer spring squish like how hammer compresses it. If it feel really really easy to squish 1 handed (strong side) to the same compression as the hammer goes. Replace the spring. (this is usually what happens if you leave the gbbr's hammer cock too long) 5 Hamme Spring V3: Remove upper, cock the hammer, set on semi, and fire. If the hammer hit the valve knock sounds like: *single Clack extremely loud, You are using an AR-15 Hammer spring, don't use it. It will destroy your receiver and firing block *2-3 Clacks moderately, this is normal *5++ clacks moderate-quiet, replace hammer spring its worn *If it doesnt even release the hammer to push the knocker all the way out, you got a really really reallyr really dead/worn hammer spring. (shouldn't be the case for you) I'm suspecting your hammer spring is the problem. PS: The reason I want you to fill your profile is simply some work on your end. It really pisses me off when a noob comes ask a question with account created the same day and never replies.
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February 27th, 2010, 02:17
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Haha yea I know what you mean. Thank you very much for the info btw, I wouldn't like having my $600 go down the drain lol. Well I will try to start my repair project tomorrow and see if any of the solutions you provided will fix it.
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February 27th, 2010, 02:32
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Honestly, why did u get a WA? This aint Japan there's no laws stating the material..WA is for Domestic Japan, G&P WOC is for Export.
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